I'd say sophistication of strategy. It's more than a technique or movement, but stragegy. An unskilled barroom brawler knows how to throw a punch in a straight and hooking motion, yet he wouldn't last 30 seconds with a skilled boxer, even though they both know the same four punches.

Helio learned traditional judo/JJ FIRST...and then he "changed" the art.

Backarcher, I am not quite sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Brazilian jujitsu is just more sophisticated? If so, I'm not sure what to say to that other than agree to disagree, haha.

"Helio learned traditional judo/JJ FIRST...and then he "changed" the art."

As for this comment; I am not sure what it is supposed to mean/prove. Sorry, you'll just have to explain yourself better. Call me slow, haha.

I like this thread. It brings up some very interesting points. I believe that the styles that get coined as "internal" by Sun Lu Tang have gotten a lot of good press over the years. Excellent marketing term, especially here in the West.

We need to look at the principles of alignment and movement and understand sensitivity and pressure of the movements in a uncooperative (but training) environment.

Bottom line, in BJJ you spend the majority of the time training on the ground developing (if you are smart) sensitivity and movement along with understanding pressure and where the hole is or is not. You do this in a competitive environment that pressures you consistently. It's like doing intense push hands except someone is trying to make you tap. If you hang in there doing BJJ or practice no-gi MMA, you get good in a relatively short time.

It's eat or be eaten...

You can practice and think about body movement and principles till the cows come home and it's nothing like feeling it when someone is crushing you.

It's like explaining what a banana tastes like. You have to taste the banana to know.

I think this is what Tim meant. (Not the banana)

Good training
Joe

http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com/

Joseph, I agree. So, why is a "internalist" unable to train like that for the ground? If you want to do mma, you definitely need to be comfortable on the ground. This being so, you need to train for it. If one trains "on the ground developing (if you are smart) sensitivity and movement along with understanding pressure and where the hole is or is not. You do this in a competitive environment that pressures you consistently." If you take a hapkido practitioner and do push hands with him, he will not do very well. This is because he hasn't practiced it before and he is unfamiliar with it. Now if you keep on practicing with him, he begin to learn to adapt his style to the situation. Hapkido has some great joint locks and throws that could work really well in a push hands environment. Does anybody disagree with that?
If that is the case, why cant somebody do that with say taiji and groundwork?

Why not just go train BJJ? Are you trying to create, or re-create something? Seems futile. You would get better, faster, and have an extensive catalog of techniques and strategies if you train BJJ for ground fighting. Taiji has no techniques developed for a ground game.
Or are you arguing just to argue?
Jake

The points have already been made. Understanding principles through stand up training will be of absolutely no help in applying the same principles on the ground.

Note that Helio did not learn Taiji, Bagua or Xingyi and then modify them for ground fighting. Helio learned ground fighting and modified the techniques he had learned until he thought they were more efficient. Apples and oranges.

Kelly, I'd suggest you take your ideas out of the realm of theory, visit a legitimate BJJ academy and see how well you do with your IMA principles against trained grapplers. You may find you can save 100 years of trying to reinvent grappling by simply training with grapplers.

Jake: I do not train BJJ because I dont believe that I need to. Why not train karate, or capoera, or baji? Because I dont believe I need to go outside these styles to find the answers. I believe that Taiji does have techniques developed for ground fighting. Just like situations change the technique while standing, they do as well on the ground. Not that I have anything against BJJ. It is a very effective style and I respect its practitioners.

Tim: No Helio did not learn the interal arts and modify them. Helio learned two styles that included ground fighting, not just ground fighting. Judo and jujitsu also included the other ranges of fighting. He just decided to focus on ground work. My opinion for the internal arts is the same. Take taiji, bagua, and hsing i techniques that can work on the ground, and practice, drill, and modify them as needed. I do currently train with some BJJ guys. Granted they are not as good as Tim here. They are experienced and one of them is an MMA coach. Some times I get them. Some times they get me. I learn from them just like they learn from me. There doesn't need to be all of this animosity between martial artists.

if it weren't for animosity martial arts wouldn't exist in the first place. Check.

In the second place, experienced martial artist, suggesting one try to 'test' ones theory isn't 'animosity'. Checkmate, mate.

Bob#2

"Eat or be eaten"

Joe, if you were a chick I would have just fallen for your crude charms.

Bob#2

K C-J Many of the guys on this forum have been there, done that. I think you can take Tims' word for it. Go out and arrainge to test your theories more, and test them against as many different styles and fighters as you can.

Mr Bob#2, haha, I agree. However, that was not what I was referring to. King me.

I was referring too all of this, my style is better than your style nonsense. You'll notice that I have never said anything bad about BJJ or any other style. Uno

As I have said before, I agree that one should test themselves. "Take taiji, bagua, and hsing i techniques that can work on the ground, and practice, drill, and modify them as needed." Part of that statement included that. Without testing, its all just talk.

I do respect Tim's opinion very much as he has had a lot of experience. I do reserve the right to question it though.

Kelly,

Best of luck with the MMA. Let us know how you do.

Kelly
I look forward to seeing video of you using "Karate, Baji, and Xing Yi" on the ground. Especially since those arts do not have any of the techniques that are quite common in BJJ! I have trained in the martial arts (which coincidentally includes Baji, Karate, and Xing Yi) for 15 years before starting BJJ. I was no better off than anyone else bro.
You are right, you do have the right to question anything anyone says here. You also have the right to be wrong!
Jake

Kelly,

I also wish you the best in your MMA fight. Win or lose, you'll learn something about yourself and where the holes are in your skillset to improve.

Many of us have experienced some sort of frustration in the skill sets that we've obtained thus we've gone and went out and acquired different skill sets based on our need/want to improve ourselves as martial artists. It's all good.

What's tough is the mental part of coming to grips with what you've already put in your bag of tricks isn't a total complete package. It's tough because a lot of people (it's normal I think) drink the one stop fits all cool aid.

What's funny is that all the old time great Chinese martial artists "cross trained" and invented their own style to fit their particular needs. A lot of folks forget this or want to believe it came to these old men through divine intervention.

It takes some "hoozbah" to get out there and compete on the mat or in the ring/cage. I tip my hat to anyone that goes out there and competes.

Good training,
Joe

http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com/

Great post Joe!
Jake

"I do not train BJJ because I dont believe that I need to. Why not train karate, or capoera, or baji? Because I dont believe I need to go outside these styles to find the answers. I believe that Taiji does have techniques developed for ground fighting."

I might have said something like that 5 or 10 years ago.
I would certainly not today.

Ok where to start, haha.

Tim, thank you for your well-wishes. As I said before, I do have a lot of respect for you and I think it's pretty cool that your adding elements of reality back into a lot of martial artists.

Jake, "You also have the right to be wrong!" Absolutely! And I have no problem being called on it if I am. It is fun getting into the discussions because it causes one to dig deep inside themselves to validate their argument or to give in and be able to say that someone else is right.

Joseph, Great post man. Thank you also for your well-wishes. "Win or lose, you'll learn something about yourself and where the holes are in your skill set to improve." That is what it's all about man.

Jason, it's all good man. The only way to really know is to go out there and test the theories.

HelLO!!!

Bob#2

""
Jason, it's all good man. The only way to really know is to go out there and test the theories.""

The purpose of my post was to illustrate how someone who has in fact 'gone out there and tested' would not likely be caught saying something so ill-informed as 'taiji has all the ground fighting I need'.

I realize that is what you meant Jason. I am not sure what you are trying to get at.