Push hands comp

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Push hands comp
   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 02:31 pm: Edit Post

i couldn't post in the taiji thing so it is here in baguazhang. In my opinion this vid shows a pretty high level of skill. What are your takes?


   By Backarcher on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 04:03 pm: Edit Post

That was fun to watch. Thanks. High level? Compared to what? I don't know the level of the competition. I'd love to enter that event.

   By chris hein on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 08:13 pm: Edit Post

Surprising how much of a mismatch there was.

If you did that shoulder stroke in a Judo match, would that be against the rules, or would it just be no point?

   By Backarcher on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 01:02 am: Edit Post

In judo, it would be almost impossible to get that close, due to your opponent's control of your gi.

I think the "bump" is a good tactic in the clinch to set up other attacks. The point of force may look like the shoulder but he is using his entire body.

   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 04:18 pm: Edit Post

Yeah I think that is the only time I have ever seen a shoulder stroke pulled off in a comp.

I think this is high level compared to most things. Sure they were mismatched but I would say its pretty hard to do most of what he did on anybody resisting, nomatter their skill. That first leg sweep he did in the begining was super fast as well.

   By Bob #2 on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 07:29 pm: Edit Post

Its too bad there was no gaggle of snide, flabby American judges there deducting points for everything after the initial skin contact.

Then it would qualify as a "real" pushhands event


   By Backarcher on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 07:56 pm: Edit Post

"...I would say its pretty hard to do most of what he did on anybody resisting, no matter their skill."

If you are were a wrestler, Sambo or Judo player, you would know those tactics were very basic. Right now, somewhere in the world, there are kids in wrestling performing the same arm drag, snap down, hip toss and outer reap in showned in the video...little kids!! Wrestling is done with resistance.

Somewhere in the world, right now, little kids in Judo or Sambo are competing and using the same outside reap, minor inner reaps and hip throws. Little kids! Judo and Sambo are done with resistance.

Most of those 8-12 year old kids are not "high level".

Most oF those movements were done from the classical wrestling "over and under" position. It is the most universal wrestling tie in the world. Almost every culture has their own form of traditional wrestling from this position. Guess what? The tactics used from all of these tradtional wrestling styles "are the same".

The only time you see wrestling techniques that are "unique" is when it comes from a style that doesn't compete or train "alive".

As a "hobby", I study and research wrestling styles from all over the globe, especially ones that utilize the "over and under" position as a starting point(Bokh, Cumberland, Glima, Inbuan, Khmer, Khuresh(just one of many of the 100s of Russian folkstyle wrestling methods), Sumo, backhold, Ssireum, Turkish....) And they all use the same basic tactics, within their rules.

Not to mention my Greco, Freestyle, Folkstyle, Judo and Sambo "practical" experience.

Go to your local Judo or Sambo school, within two months of training you'll see 90% of those tactics. Go to your local high school wrestling team and you'll see at least 60% of the techniques. moreover go to your local college wrestling team and you'll see 90%.

What I'm saying is that it's "all subjective".
When judokas and Sambo players saw Royce Gracie armlock and choke out martial artist and wrestlers who had little to no submission expereince, they did not consider it "high level"...but the majority of martial artist and non-martial artist who never grappled, thought Royce was doing something innovative and "high level".

We don't even know if the tai chi players in the video had Judo or Chinese wrestling experience.

Explore this site when you have time: http://www.judoinfo.com/animate.htm

Please don't get me wrong, I love that video.

   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

Backarcher. Your post was enjoyable to read and very informative and I agree with everything you said. You missunderstood me though. I am not implying that what he was aplying was high level. I am implying that his ability in doing so was high level. No technique was ever gotten off on him. And I think just about every time he tried a technique, it worked. He also did so with very good technique. He wasn't stumbling all over the place. He had a solid base the whole time as was able to generate tons of power from it. That is what I am impressed with. Not the techniques. Though I do have to say, I was pleasantly surprized when he pulled off those shoulder strokes.

   By William on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:54 pm: Edit Post

when compared with this video, Kelly's video IS of very high level


   By Backarcher on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 08:54 pm: Edit Post

I apologize.

Thanks, Kelly!

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