Archive through May 14, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Yin Fu Ba Gua: Archive through May 14, 2002
   By jay on Monday, December 11, 2000 - 07:57 pm: Edit Post


In some websites I've seen, Yin Fu style Ba Gua is called Ba Gua QUAN. The reason given for this is that the Yin Fu style is a more complete art that includes all elements of Lohan (even closed hand strikes) as well as Ti-Tang groundfighting. Another site for "Imperial Palace" Ba Gua also uses QUAN rather than ZHANG.

On the other hand, Adam Hsu's and other students of Liu Yun Quio practice the Yin Fu style and call their art Ba Gua Zhang. One article I read on the net even had Master Liu studying the "light body" chi kung that allowed Yin Fu to hop over fifteen foot walls, directly from Yin Fu's descendents, but not mastering that art.

Is there a real difference between Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Gua Quan, or are they basically the same?

Do some Ba Gua styles contain closed fist blows and ti-tang?


   By Rocky the flying squirel on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 11:47 am: Edit Post

Do you honestly believe anyone jumped over 15' foot walls. Climbed maybe, hopped over no way! Pole vaulted sure! I don't care how much Gordon lightfoot he listened to, no one has ever hopped over a 15' wall. Physics have not changed. Gravity was here then as well as now. The greatest Athelete's in the world have never reached the 8 foot mark. Are you honestly gullable enough to believe everything you read. Please think about what you are saying! You know all those Kung-Fu movies where the fighter's fly through the air. I'll give you a hint here, THAT'S NOT REAL LIFE!!!!!

   By Sum Guye on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 11:59 am: Edit Post

I think that the Chinese Opera guys
who can so masterfully spring/climb over
tall walls (like Jackie Chan) could
have easily inspired tales of leaping and flying over things back in the times when replays and video footage were not available.

It's no trick- but it is not defying gravity either.

   By Bullwinkles Buddy on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 02:15 pm: Edit Post

Sum Guye,

You are not saying you believe a human being can vertically leap 15 feet in the air! Or are you? Jackie Chan is a remarkable athelete, a great stunt man for sure, but a 15 foot vertical leap is beyond human capability. No amount of steroids and training will enable this feat. Maybe in the future with bionic legs like Lee Majors, but not now or ever before!

   By Sum Guye on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 04:31 pm: Edit Post

Underly Observant one

note the "SPRING/CLIMB" phrase in my post...
immediately followed by the "could have inspired tales of.

I've seen folks SPRING off the ground and, with one or two remarkably fast ricocheting-off-adjacent-walls movements, CLIMB over 15 or 20 foot fences and/or walls.

At first glance it appears that they jumped right over- That, done in front of people who weren't expecting it, would look like a magical leap.
Those people go home- tell their friends "I just saw this guy jump over a 15 foot wall"
"you saw this yourself???"
"yes- it was amazing"
a legend is born.

[You seem so bent on finding an argument that you neglect to clearly observe things].

   By Rocky on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 05:01 pm: Edit Post

Who you calling underly observant! That is why I framed my post with a question. You have restored my faith in your intelligence, now don't piss me off or I'll have Bob #2 shove a spiked nub up your asking me a question? No I'm not looking for a fight. Keep training, I am the only one that can fly on this board.

   By Bob #2 on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 05:15 pm: Edit Post

Nub's cocked and ready!

   By Tim on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit Post

In the early days of Ba Gua the martial art, after the original name had been changed from "Zhuan Zhang" (Turning Palm), Ba Gua Zhang and Ba Gua Quan were used interchangeably. Obviously, the use of "zhang" denotes the art's emphasis on palm techniques. Using Quan does not mean the art necessarily is more complete, 'quan' simply denotes an art is martial.
Some styles of Ba Gua (if not most) include closed fists strikes as well as open hand strikes.

No one has ever jumped over a 15 foot wall unaided.

   By Jay on Tuesday, December 12, 2000 - 10:59 pm: Edit Post

Maybe I should have written my question more clearly. I said that the "light body chi kung" that Liu Yun Quio learned enabled Yin Fu to jump jump 15 over fifteen feet walls because that's what I remember reading. I didn't mean to imply that I PERSONALLY believed in such superhuman feats, but rather that such feats were atributed to Yin Fu by some in a particular lineage who just happen to have a web page.

My main are of interest in this question was not the superhuman jumps, but rather how Ba Gua Quan and Ba Gua Zhang might be different (I.E. Fist strikes and ti-tang).

Sorry about the confusion...

   By Dizzy on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit Post

I've fallen off a fifteen foot wall......and landed on my feet......also fallen down some stairs and landed on my head!! (not the stuff of legend), but thanx Tim for sticking to the centre!

   By jeff kabaker on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 06:20 pm: Edit Post

Hello people, I'm the new kid on the block:-)
I know this thread goes back some time but I thought I would add what I know. First of all, I don't believe Liu Yun Chaio had any crossings with Yin Fu although his bagua teacher did study with him and may hav e passed on some stories about Yin Fu to him. There are stories of his teacher Gong Bao Tien being able to jump at least one story high. As I understand it, when Liu Yun Chaio met Gong Bao Tien, he arrived in his courtyard to find him standing one level u p with no apparant way of getting there. To me I always considered this a metephor for Gong Bao Tiens high level of expertise. There was/is a method of training this "light body" technique called iron vest or iron jacket kung. I do not associate that with chi kung which is more about the breath and circulation of chi. It involved actually wearing a metal jacket. I have been told Liu wore the jacket for two years without taking it off. I never questioned how he was able to bathe or sleep in it. :-) Afterward, his jumping ability had more than doubled. You only need to look at clips of Michael Jordan to understand that this is possible.

Anyway, to answer your original question a bit, Yin style bagua has more fists and elbows in it although it is largely a grappling style. There are palm strikes galore but in truth it is the body the "palm" is refering to. It is the body changes that the "zhang" refers to.ËËË

   By SysOp on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 06:39 pm: Edit Post

I like the Fortune Cookie option on your website. It's very novel.

   By jeff k on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 06:51 pm: Edit Post

Ha Ha, Yes I am a web developer. Much of what you see on my website I have developed for other sites. That bit of code was very useful as is the chinese astrology code. Like bagua applications, one line of java script or perl can be used for many applicat ions. Those were not the final applications but I also thought it was a novel application, so I left it. Anyway, thanks for the reply, it's nice to meet ya.

   By Cool Hand Luke on Wednesday, June 27, 2001 - 11:50 pm: Edit Post


I am respectfully offering another viewpoint to the assertion that overload training (weighted vest)increased the jumping ability of Gung Bao Tien.

And I am in no way stating you are incorrect.

IMO and experience the effectiveness of overload training in terms of increasing the velocity of a movement is far more effective when used in conjunction with underload training otherwise the neuromuscular system adapts to moving slow or heavy.Where underload can train the system to move at high velocity.

Perhaps other modes of training were equally responsible for the increase in his jumping ability?

"According to the fundamental law of physics,there jumping height which a jumper can reach is determined by the vertical component of the jumpers takeoff velocity.So vertical jumping ability is directly related to the power output of the jumpers leg muscles because the power output is the product of velocity(speed and muscle contraction) and strength.Therefore,not only strength training but speed training is supposed to be an important factor in improving vertical jumping ability."

   By jeff k on Thursday, June 28, 2001 - 12:17 am: Edit Post

Interesting read, I enjoyed it. Thanks. It did not really elaborate on what they meant by weight training though. It does make sense that a balance in strength and speed are required in maximum vertical jumping.

   By Deadpool on Friday, June 29, 2001 - 10:09 pm: Edit Post

Are you sure that was not fifteen one foot walls?? I mean to jump over????

   By CaIibus on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 02:57 pm: Edit Post


Do you know any more about this Light Body skills? How does it work? Where would I learn it? What would I need to learn first? Did Grand Master Liu's legs swell up because of a circulation problem? Do you know SIfu Tsou?

   By Bob on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:42 pm: Edit Post

I once saw Dr Painter talk about light body skills on his Yahoo Group. If memory serves me correctly it comes from a higher cultivation of qi and energy skills once a solid foundation is laid.

On Jarek's site there is an article on Bagua about Ma(?) who also has amazing light body skills.

   By CaIibus on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 09:40 pm: Edit Post


Thank you. That is what I wanted to hear. Who is Jarek and Dr.Painter? Do you have a link to either of there sites?

   By Bob on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 12:12 am: Edit Post

Jarek has been in China for 10+ years now and has written some excellent articles. Whenevr I converse with him he is helpful and an allround excellent guy.

Main Page:
Article on Ma:

Dr. Painter:
His Yahoo Group: