hello tim,

i have a question for you if you dont mind,

i was reading an article on "fan the madman" from chinafrominside.com. According to the article, here is a quote.

"Practice Methods (Gong Fa) include: Wu Ji Zhuang (Wu Ji Standing Pole), Jin Gang Da Li Fa (Vajra Great Strength Method), Kao Zi (Shoulder Striking), Chuan Shou (Piercing Hands), etc."

what caught my eye was "Jin Gang Da Li Fa". (vajra strength method)

i am interested in various methods of strength trainingin order to help me progress in my study of the martial arts, and i was wondering if you had any information that you can share on this, your input is highly valued.

prosperity, longevity, and happiness, rob.

robert,

I'm not familiar with the method.

that's a typO. it's "Jin Gang Da Li Fa". (vaiajra strength method)

hope that answers your question

if not i could point you towards several great resources for strength training.

quote tim "robert,

I'm not familiar with the method."


thats perfectly fine, thanks for the reply tim.

jason, point away, though i must say that i am bored by the typical bench pressing squat routune. im not interested in futility.

bob#2 (what about you?) or do you just have a keen eye for typO's?

start with "the science of martial training" by Charles Staley. It will give you an overview of most of the relevant topics.

If you are suggesting that squatting is 'futility' you should read some, try to find what Staley, Alwyn Cosgrove, Pavel Tsatsouline and even Tim have said about the merits of strength for fighters. Ask the top fighters in the UFC in any class, if they lift weights or not.

I am an opinionated guy, but I believe that strength, absolute/max/limit whatever you want to call it strength, is the keystone or foundation of all other motor qualities. You cannot be fast without strength, you cannot endure without strength, you cannot have good balance with an opponent without strength. Strength is the base from which all over motor skills are built. Squatting is an excellent method of developing strength, but you are right, it is not the end. It is only one step in a progression of leg training exercises that will lead one to a greater capacity to perform martial arts, whether that is TaiJi or Vale Tudo.

once you have digested that, progress to 'Athletic Body in Balance', by Gray Cook, then 'Functional training for Sports' by Mike Boyle, then "Explosive Lifting for Sports" by Harvey Newton. Pick up a complete text on Periodization to help you plan your program design: "Periodization-4th Edition - Theory and Methodology of Training" by Tudor Bompa is a classic, and you'll be set.

I wish someone had told me all this years ago...

would have saved me hundreds of hours of wasted time...

robert,

I'm not familiar with the method.

Bob#2

thanks bobnob.2, i mean bob#2. (relax)


jason, maybe i should have been more specific. Im sure those are great books, but im more interested in "old" exercises if you know what i mean. i tend to overlook books that are called "explosive powerlifting" since after you read about three of the same subject, there is not really much else to learn. They preach diet, form, and basics, and maybe the science, but that crap bores me.

power training methods in yoga and chi gong interest me more since they have a more relevent benefit to my health and there is much more to discover for me. the problem is that they are hard to come by, if i wanted to learn about functional training for sports, i could look in an encyclopedia.

thanks. much appreciated.

In an encyclopedia? What are you going to learn of value about such a specific topic in such a general reference? Did you learn Jin Gong Da Li Fa from an encyclopedia?

what's so new about squats?

One reference I made was Pavel, b/c he promotes Kettlebells, which are becoming popular again amongst martial artists, after a 100+ year hiatus. They are not that different from shaolin padlocks, and stone lifting.

I think that your concepts of strength are too narrow, and perhaps even a little misguided.

robert: They preach diet, form, and basics, and maybe the science, but that crap bores me.

doesn't CMA bore you too then? Any good teacher is going to force you to perfect the basics, like simple stances, straight forward strikes and perfecting form. They may not cover diet, but any good tecaher will eventually reveal some sort of 'scientific method' behind their beliefs about martial arts and training. If they do not have observations, experiments and repeatable results that lead to conclusions, what do they have to offer?

Perhaps that is why you prefer IMA. Most instructors of IMA will cater to your inherent fear of confrontation, whether it be in the form of hard work(weightlifting), sparring or challenging your prejudices. Most IMA teachers will baby sit you with forms, and after a year or two you'll have a 'black sash' and then someday you'll get old or you'll get your ass kicked. Some day you can tell your blind disciples about your Yoda/Miyagi figure and his supernatural (entirely untested by true experimentation)powers. Until you are ready to test any of these practices by 'scientific' standards, they hold little merit outside of faith/culture. Two valuable things, but they hold little merit in the quantitative discussion of who will defeat who in a physical confrontation.

Again, I am trying to help. The leads that I gave you helped me enormously. I hope that some other posters will chime in, like backarcher or (others, names are escaping me now).

Definition of Strength

STRENGTH

To define Strength in layman's terms, it would go like this:
The ability to exert Maximum Force contraction of your working muscles.

Now there are a few factors that contribute to Maximum Force contractions. Those being: (a) Anatomical, (b) Physiological, (c) Psychological, & (d) Environmental.

Ahhh, BUT as I stated above, the definition of Strength was in everyday lingo. Now, let us define Strength as it pertains to Sports:
A Maximum MUSCULOSKELETAL Force against an external object (such as a barbell, the ground, or an opponent).(ISSA, Sports Conditioning, p. 59)

We can also call the force exerted by muscles, POWER. The formula for POWER is Power = Work x Time.

Back

Last UpDate: 20 September 1997 19:49:13PM EST

jason jason jason,

"In an encyclopedia? What are you going to learn of value about such a specific topic in such a general reference?"


you are so predictable. I shouldve went with what i had in mind in the beginning and said no kettlebells either.

"I think that your concepts of strength are too narrow, and perhaps even a little misguided."

Really? Why is that? Is it because all the crap that your preaching is crap that ive heard and seen a million times over? Been there, done that.

"Perhaps that is why you prefer IMA. Most instructors of IMA will cater to your inherent fear of confrontation, whether it be in the form of hard work(weightlifting), sparring or challenging your prejudices. Most IMA teachers will baby sit you with forms, and after a year or two you'll have a 'black sash' and then someday you'll get old or you'll get your ass kicked. Some day you can tell your blind disciples about your Yoda/Miyagi figure and his supernatural (entirely untested by true experimentation)powers. Until you are ready to test any of these practices by 'scientific' standards, they hold little merit outside of faith/culture. Two valuable things, but they hold little merit in the quantitative discussion of who will defeat who in a physical confrontation."


interesting inference, but way off. Ive been in many fights and have gotten my fair share of "asskickings". You obviously know nothing about me, and i should point out to you that your inferences sound more like you projecting yourself onto me. I grew up lifting weights, so what? weights dont really do •••• for you, and they especially wont teach you anything about fighting.

We are obviously on different pages, youre probably going to say something like "LIFTING WEIGHTS WILL HELP YOUR FIGHTING BY INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF STRENGTH IN YOUR MUSCLES!" really? What genius came up with that great enlightening theory?

you just dont understand where im coming from, and i can see you coming from a mile away.

imo there is a bigger world to explore in the study of all the ways of strength training, and ive dabbled long enough in western scientifical theories for the time being. although it does get interesting when the "anal" lytical minds of the west try and pick apart eastern stuff. im not knocking science, but plain and simple, weight training is on the back burner. And obviously thats all you have to offer, unless you can enlighten me with the knowledge you obtained from (training in china for 4 years!?)

nevermind thanks anway.

robert,

I learned a method called Jin Gang that is basically a whole body "dynamic tension" type method with sinking the chi (pressure in lower abdomen to work the inner ab core strength). It's a great intense workout that seems to increase strength and durability by increasing muscle control and fiber recruitment (that's my guess any way). This is distinct from Jin Gang Chuan which is a Taiji like Shaolin form (which I also learned). I strongly suspect this is the same or a similar method to what you are refering to since the translation of the chinese characters is the same meaning as vajra.

cool, thanks zak.

sorry guy.

dynamic tension?
increasing muscle control and fiber recruitment?
sounds familiar,kinda like huh....WEIGHTLIFTING!
robert you are such a ignorant,the chinese
would have been thrilled to know what we know now about strength training.
instead of just reading something and then claiming you been there done that,maybe getting in the gym and actually doing it could help.
fighting is not some intellectual thing you can just read about or think about,you got to sweat
and bleed,try and fail.
stop looking for a magic chi kung set and start
training!
THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR WILL REVEAL ITSELF TO THE ONES WHO GIVE THEMSELVES TO THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR!!!

the best san da fighters today, that come out of the Beijing Sports University, have all been exposed to a high volume of weight training, plyometrics, and sparring. That's all I'm saying.

The fighting monks at Shaolin were lifting weights centuries ago.

yeah, of course they were, but thats not all that they were doing, and you know it man.

im not knocking weights or any thing of that sort, i lift weights here and there, im just saying that there is other •••• out there and im tired of hearing about weightlifting. There is only so much you can do with a heavy object, im more interested in excercises that cultivate the nervous system

hey people, doesnt neigong ring a bell?

tim, you know what im talking about.

heavy weightlifting stimulates the CNS highly, much more so than any mechanical or metabolic impacts. So does explosive lifting, which is why I recommended Mr. Newton's book. Another great resource for CNS effects of heavy/high intensity training is Pavel, and his Power to the People and Naked Warrior texts. You may like the latter robert, as it focuses on Bodyweight exercises.