Archive through June 12, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Seventy Two Hidden Kicks of BaguaZhang: Archive through June 12, 2002
   By HiddenPalm on Saturday, May 11, 2002 - 01:20 pm: Edit Post

Does any body know where to get the "Seventy Two Hidden Kicks of BaGuaZhang" by Zhao Zhenzhong. I heard its actually only in chinese and in pin yin it sounds like this "Qi 'Shi 'Er An Tui" published by the Beijing Physical Education University Press 1996/2000.

I've scorged the chinese bookstores in Chinatown and in Flushing Queens and had no luck. I searched the internet heavily and only found it in a book listing with no instructions on how to get it. Please help!

Hidden Palm

   By Bagua Bill on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:02 pm: Edit Post

There's an dealer in evanston Illinois who may
have what you seek. I cannot recall his name
or the stores name,but it's downtown in evanston
illinois. the chamber of comerce or the phone book will be of use in finding it.he sell books of all types chinese.He has the best old book collection for sale I have seen to date and I have traveled well.

   By jerry spiliotis on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 01:24 am: Edit Post

the name of the bookstore is called peking bookhouse on chicago ave. in evanston ill. i buy many books from him.

   By Mad fist on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 09:03 pm: Edit Post

New York China town bookstores sell many old martial Art books you just have to look harder.i own my on copy of the Seventy Two Hidden Kicks Of Ba Gua. nothing exceptional about the book. The form in the book looks like any common Ba Gua form. the only unusual thing about the form is the many kicks performed. And by the way, the kicks are not hidden.

   By cherrypraxis on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 01:36 am: Edit Post

Hi Hidden Palm:

What style of Ba Gua are you studying and with whom? I'm also in New York and I've been studying with Master David Bond Chan in Chinatown these past four months. He teaches Gong style/Imperial Palace Ba Gua and I have heard him refer to the 72 "hidden" kicks in class every now and then. We're covering palms right now and I've only seen several variations of some kicks. I come from a traditional Tae Kwon Do background and the kicks I witnessed were efficient and and sharper than anything I've ever seen in my limited experience.

I haven't seen that many Ba Gua styles and I was wondering if your style has these "hidden" kicks. From what I hear, most Ba Gua styles emphasize hand techniques. Anyway, I'd appreciate any info you or any of you guys can provide. Thanks.


   By jeff k on Friday, May 31, 2002 - 10:30 am: Edit Post

Haven't seen the book but I would say based on our 72 kicking form that kicks may be obvious in a form but not so obvious to the recipient. Also, many of the kicks are hidden in the turns and footwork. I might add that in most styles of bagua I have seen that the hands are not overly emphasised compared with throwing, kicking, locking, elbows etc., etc. As I have always said, the zhang in baguazhang refers to the whole body and not just the inside center of the hand.

Hidden Palm, if you find the book please post where you found it and how much? BTW, if you see one on the 18 elbows of bagua, grab it.

   By ETB on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:19 pm: Edit Post

You can probably get it off of Jarek's site.
He has most of the Bagua books published in China.

   By Bagua Bill on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:35 pm: Edit Post

Hi jerry.Chicago guy too huh?

   By H2O Dragon on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:40 pm: Edit Post

I'm a Chicago Guy!!!!

I get so excited some times :D

   By Bagua Bill on Wednesday, June 05, 2002 - 02:46 pm: Edit Post

Hello h2o dragon.

   By Brian Weaver on Thursday, June 06, 2002 - 10:39 am: Edit Post

I haven't seen it so I can't comment on the quality, but Gerald Sharp has a video tape on the 72 Leg Techniques of the Jiang Rong Qiao style offered on his website at

The description of the tape reads: "This is Jiang's Post-Heaven form. Powerful, yet balanced and symetrical, this form adds low sneaky kicks, wrapping kicks, and sweeps to develop leg strength, as well as attacking and retreating ability."

   By Bagua Bill on Friday, June 07, 2002 - 02:55 pm: Edit Post

yes adding low leg usage is an good idea as it adds sensory overload to the opponent.But there's
only so many ways you can move your limbs and you should be able to figure-out your own techniques.
Bruce Lee was right about the classical mess being
an trap.Do not get caught letting others think or
do for you.Get an physics book or kinetics book
and try to get to know the angles/vectors of force
involved and train them. Lines,circles,corners.
And remember the masters(as if theres such an thing)are human too and limited by the same things
you are.To claim to be an master means that you
are incapable of learning any further.REmain the
perpetual student always seeking.

Have an nice day!!

   By Emil Sobel on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 12:51 am: Edit Post

cherry praxis i was talking with a Chinese Qi-Gong expert today named Mou Chuan Jing, who was very good friends with the late kenny Gong for many years.

I ask Him about your sifu Mr. David Bond Chan, He told me Mr. David Bond Chan did not studie long with master kenny gong and did not learn much. Also Master Kenny Gong did not teach Gong style-Imperial Palace Ba Gua Zhang or Song Style Hsing -I.

Can you tell Me Who your Sifu learn his Gong style-Imperial Palace Ba Gua and Song Style Hsing -I from.

   By cherrypraxis on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 01:39 am: Edit Post

Hi Emil,

Thank you for asking that question because my post needed clarification. When I said Gong style Imperial Ba Gua, I didn't mean the late Master Kenny Gong but Gong Bao Tien who was one of Dong Hai Chuan's students. You're correct. Master Chan didn't learn much from the late Master Kenny Gong. His Ba Gua and Xingyi have nothing to do with the late Master. However, my teacher had learned from many other teachers and he did bai si with nine other masters.

Master Chan learned Imperial Palace Ba Gua from the late Master Wang Zhuang Fei and he learned his Song-style Xing Yi from Master Sau who was the captain of the Shanghai Wushu Team in the 60s and 70s. In the early 1970s, this wushu team visited the U.S. and they did a demonstration at Madison Sq. Garden. At the time, Jet Li, at 7 years of age was already in the team and participated in that demonstration.


   By jeff k on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 11:14 am: Edit Post


Dong Hai Chuan died in 1882 and was bedridden for the last couple of years of his life. He could not have taught Gong Bao Tien who was not born until 1871. Would you ask your bagua brothers where I can find published historical facts (besides Imperial Palace Web Site) of any teaching Gong Bao Tien got from Dong Hai Chuan directly?

Also, I am curious what 9 master formally passed their lineage David Bond Chan.

Don't mis-understand. I have tremendous respect for the Imperial Palace school after meeting Gong Zhong Xiang here in California. I have heard a great deal about Wang Zhuang Fei's fighting ability. But all my sources say that only Yin Fu was Gong Bao Tien's teacher. Just trying to keep my historical data accurate for future publication. If you have some sources I may have overlooked, I would be greatful.

   By Lincoln on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post

I study Baguquan from the Gong Bao-Tian lineage also, but it is from the Gong Bao-Zhai lineage and we do not recognize Dong Hai Chuan as the teacher of Gong Bao-Tian. We think that it is Yin Fu like most.


   By cherrypraxis on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 12:40 pm: Edit Post

Hi Jeff,

Your inquiry does not surprise me as I've grown accustomed with this issue as this has come up several times since I became involved in my school. There is no published "historical" evidence to corroborate the contestable fact that Gong Bao Tien was indeed a student of Dong Hai Chuan. My teacher said that many documents in mainland China, even back then, were doctored. It wasn't unusual for people to make up date of births and such. According to my teacher, his sifu Wang Zhuang Fei (now deceased) became a student of Gong Bao Tien because Master Wang's wealthy family was able to give Gong protection from people who wanted to see him dead. In exchange for his protection, he taught Ba Gua to Master Wang. From what my teacher understood, Gong was a student of Dong Hai Chuan though in public it seemed that he was actually a student of Yin Fu's. Gong most definitely began his studies with Yin Fu at an early age but was taken directly to Dong after a while. My teacher adamantly says that Gong learned from Dong longer than what was "documented."

Also, the traditional (a.k.a. old) Chinese ways in MA schools were not as clearly defined or categorized as we would like them to. As a case in point, in my school, the children's classes are taught by my master's disciple. She teaches them most of the techniques they are learning with occasional supervision from my teacher. When they grow up, however, they will be considered students of Mr. David Bond Chan.

I apologize for not being able to direct you to more substantial published material that can verify my lineage's claim that Gong Bao Tien was in fact a direct disciple of Dong Hai Chuan. This becomes a "he-says-she-says" case where it's this lineage's claim against everyone else's. Our claim is only through oral transmission/history and people have a penchant for believing what is written more than what is said.

About the nine masters that my teacher bowed to, I am not familiar with all of them. I do know, however, that he mentions four people constantly--Master Wang Zhuang Fei, Master Sau, Master Lui (i'm not sure about the spelling) and the "Chopstick Man".

If you're ever in NY, you should come by to the teacher can answer any questions you may have directly. This invitation is extended to anyone else who might be interested...


   By jeff k on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 04:03 pm: Edit Post


I was not questioning Wang Zhuang Fei's connection. He is listed by multiple sources as one of Gong Bao Tien's students and money went a long way to get you in with Gong. As I have said in the past and is documented, many people dispute the date of Dong's birth, but all agree on the fact he died in 1882. The latest he would be teaching would be approx. 2 years before his death which would make Gong 11 years old by some records (only nine by mine). He would have spent some time with Yin Fu as all other sources say that Yin Fu was his teacher. I know Gong to be extremly talanted, but how good do you think a 7 year old could be to be accepted as a student of Dong?

I only want to have facts before publishing so if there is any factual information you can share I would appreciate it greatly. I always give credit where credit is due.

And I would not think of coming to New York without visiting you. I have had good communications with a couple of your brothers over the past 3 years and want to meet them as well. Look for me around the end of September ;)

   By cherrypraxis on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 04:35 pm: Edit Post

Hi Jeff,

Excuse my post if it came across that you were questioning the connection between Master Wang and Gong Bao Tien. I did not construe from your post that you were inquiring about it but I did want to make it clear just in case someone else was reading my posts and had any inquiries. As you can see from my earliest post in this thread, someone had misinterpreted Gong style Ba Gua by relating it to one of my teacher's former teachers, Master Kenny Gong. It was not due to you or your posts. If anything, you've been quite courteous and I'm certain that this discussion has been illuminating for some and a dead horse continually being flayed to others. :)

I have spoken to Mr. Chan and one of my school brothers (Eight Triagram Boxer) about this issue of whether Gong Bao Tien was actually a direct student of Dong Hai Chuan or not. Perhaps Gong was born earlier than most people have documented. I am not certain as this is only from conjecture. Even you have a different record of Gong's birth from what others generally have. This area is quite dim and most documented evidence point otherwise but from what I was told, Gong was indeed a direct student of Dong's. As I have mentioned earlier, I cannot produce any 'hard' evidence to support this claim. I only go by my teacher's words. But if you do drop by this September, you can ask Mr. Chan himself and hear the story for yourself. :)

We look forward to your impending visit.

   By Eight_Triagram_Boxer on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 12:54 am: Edit Post

Why you gotta cause trouble huh? Picking on my classmate? Haahaa... Just kidding. How have you been? I haven't talked to you in a while. What's new?
OK, despite what the books say, I just want to ask one thing. This has nothing to do with lineage...

Why do you think Gong's Bagua looks so much different from Yin's Bagua? Do you think he studied with others besides Yin?

What have you come across in your research?