Archive through June 24, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Seventy Two Hidden Kicks of BaguaZhang: Archive through June 24, 2002
   By razakdigital on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 11:54 am: Edit Post

The bottom line is that we jumped in when the Black Taoist named was mentioned. So if no one mentioned anyone in our crew name then we won't get involved in these posts. We have enough to do with our trip to China and the pa kua tournament - so believe me when I say that we are just too busy for Internet Warriors.

Jeff, (Count)

The reason why Pa Kua fighters look like a joke on public forum is because most of them have no skills. That's the truth...too much talking about theory and mystical books and no real application of their studies.

   By jeff k on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 01:13 pm: Edit Post


I would be the first to agree that names of persons known or unknown who's skills can not be known without first at least meeting them, should not be brought into a discussion. But why would anyone take offense and feel they need to take the time to defend themselves on an internet bulletin board in the first place. Truth or lie can only be known through experience, not words.

How can you tell what skills a person has on an internet forum? You can't, but you can tell from a persons knowledge of principles and history of the system/systems of bagua how in depth their studies go. There is no mysticism in martial arts, only hard work and sweat. But there is theory, principles and many realizations that come from in depth practice which can be shared in an open forum. Truth is, you can tell alot about a person from how they react to truths and lies. But to say that "Pa Kua fighters look like a joke because most of them have no skills" is a weak generalization at best. The small fraction that you have met may have had no skills.

"Bottom line" IS, Blacktaoist has made a name for himself in a very open and public way. People are bound to bring up his "crew" from time to time. It is a compliment that his opinions are so widely thought of. But no one in this thread, has insulted him personally. Only Mr. Chan was singled out. And Blacktaoist spoke eloquently in his behalf. Let's let it die and talk about mutual experiences instead of personal biases. There is enough bagua for everybody.

There is good info on the first two archives of this thread. Got anything to say about bagua leg forms in your school? Maybe you haven't learned that yet? Maybe it was too hidden to recognize. At which point along the course of your studies in baguazhang should the leg form be learned? I think that bagua tui gives you foundation to add to your root.;)

   By Craig S. Kiessling on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 03:07 pm: Edit Post

Brian Kennedy:

You are truly "the man!"
I can't believe you threw that quote in there! That has been my favOrite line since I first heard it as a kid. I can just see him saying it too. And then you had to go and do the "looking good" one...Hahaha! Hell yeah.
But....when's that super hot chick coming in?
Reeeal Emoootional Content - Not Anger! Now Try Again.

   By HiddenPalm on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 03:29 pm: Edit Post

"At which point along the course of your studies in baguazhang should the leg form be learned? I think that bagua tui gives you foundation to add to your root." -Jeff

Heh heh, Please explain this BaGua Tui in more detail, and how does it benefit the 72 hidden Legs?

David, perhaps you can share your thoughts on this also. Your presence in this forum would be a major contribution as all the other Masters who occasionally post here.

HiddenPalm - a fly in the wind not yet a Dragon.

   By jeff k on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 10:25 am: Edit Post

Hidden Palm.

Even though I detect a hint of sarcastic patronizing in the tone of your questions I can provide some more detail. Take it for what it's worth, I am not a master, nor do there seem to be any others posting on this forum directly or any others I participate in. (Tim excepted, he is an excellent teacher (Tim, if you want to know how I know, you may ask me privately:)))

First of all, only centipedes have 72 legs, none of which seem to be hidden.

Our form from the Gong Bao Tien lineage is not called anything but bagua tui. Each form in our system is designed to develop or add something different. Ba Zhang or the 8 mother palms teaches single palm change and develops moving root and body alignment. Bagua Tui or bagua leg adds leg strength and powerful kicks. Yin Shao or Hard Hand teaches power issuing. We than add bagua elbow form and bagua fist form. That should be obvious to you. 64 Palms is probably the main form in our system and taught me the most about fighting with baguazhang. Then comes the linking form which brings everything together. Beginners all first learn Shao Kai Men. Most of the forms have both linear and circular training. Most of the forms are done both left handed and right handed. Most of the forms have an "A" and "B" side for two man. And most of the forms have a different weapon version.

But ALL of the forms have a set of basics and principles which are trained from 6 months to a year before even learning the form. Bagua Leg basics, if you can survive them, build leg strength and power for kicking and trapping. Your legs become hard on the outside and energetic on the inside. Without this foundation for support the other stuff is useless. Before you can maintain the ground path in the upper basin you must train in a lower basin, and without good legs you can forget about developing correct power. Bagua Tui benefits you by giving you the leg strength necessary to continue your training.

Hope this helps answer some questions. I would still like to hear from Razak and the others about where the "leg form" or "72 hidden legs" fits into their systems. Especially you hidden palm. BTW, You might ask Ben Hill in your area about learning 72 hidden legs form. I know he knows it or could recommend someone to teach you. Learning forms from books or video's without basics and training hands on might set you in the wrong direction which could prove to be irreversible.

   By stc on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 11:12 am: Edit Post

hey all..

sorry bt this is very dissapointing.... we have had three pages of insults and no one has slung any s**t at Bruce Frantzis or John Painter .. I'm sure they are devastated..

peace to you all


   By HiddenPalm on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 04:41 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Jeff, Your post was loaded with alot of useful information. The sarcastic tone was just my reaction to all the posts that I had read. I had not logged on for awhile so I had to read them all in one shot. There were people mad at me, and like people mad at other people, etc. Someone thought I was elderly or something and wanted to see pictures of me physically hurt!? You guys are all insane, I tell you! But, I love you all. I really do.

I was not aware that Ben Hill taught the 72 hidden legs. Though I always knew his kicks were unique to most BaGua artists. Now it all makes sence!

In my system, the 72 hidden kicks falls into the same catagory as every thing else - I will get to it or I'm already doing it. Since I have no tradition and no loot, I try to take everything that I can get, no lineage, no style, just BaGua. Your post is an impressive example of how to plan your BaGua study. Its almost as straightfoward as the Xing Yi QUan lay out.

I'm also interested on how other artists on this board use the 72 hidden kicks in their system.

HiddenPalm - a fly in the wind not yet a dragon.

   By jeff k on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 05:03 pm: Edit Post

You are very welcome:) BTW, I'm not sure Ben would be teaching that, I only know he knows about it. Before anyone calls Blacktaoist to tell him his brothers name was brought up in this thread, Hi Ben;), see you in September.:D:D:D

   By Mike on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 09:23 pm: Edit Post

Hey HiddenPalm,
I train under Sifu Ben Hill, and the man does teach the 72 kicks as well the kicking sets in Cao ZhongSheng Pa Kua Chang.
My sifu will tell you his Classmate BT have more experience in these kicking methods, because he is always with their master Chen Xiaoping learning the many new sets.
This is because my sifu Ben no longer lives in New York but stay in syracuse. But he still go to New York to vist his master to learn New Yin sets. Right know at the school my sifu have me learning the top fist form. This form have many kicking techniques.I think this form is from the Yin Pa Kua system. I plan to demonstrate this form at the all Pa Kua event. If you like more information you can call my sifu at his Pa Kua school in syracuse 315 422-3718 his e-mail is

Hey razakdigital To bad we could not met last week, I wanted to spar you. Maybe next time when my sifu comes down to New York. I learn many good sparring techniques from your sifu BT. That overhand palm technique he taught me was off the hook. I had a good time sparring your brothers you guys play for keeps. If I didn't know how to keep my hands up, I learned how that sat-day...LOL

Hope to met you soon.

   By HiddenPalm on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 02:10 am: Edit Post

Thank you Mike, I'm really considering. Perhaps in a few months after I finish my current projects. I appreciate it.

In the mean time can you tell us about the kicking sets in Cao ZhongSheng Pa Kua Chang? What are they like. I never heard of them before, probally because BaGua is a crazy mega art and my lack of knowledge. Thanks again.


   By Mike on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 02:02 pm: Edit Post

I don't know much about the CaoZhongSheng kicking sets, I'm still a beginner in the style, but I seen my sifu perform a few of the kicking sets. The kicking sets I saw him perform look very hard to practice, there are many crazy looking kicking techniques in some of the CaoZhongSheng sets.
Last week my sifu tape BT doing one of the Kicking sets. I don't know the name of this set, but I know it was from the CaoZhongSheng method. The form Bt perform had many forceful elbow attacks and low kicks.
HiddenPalm you should E-mail my sifu I know he can help you with any question you may have about the kicking sets in CaoZhongSheng Pa Kua Chang?

   By Maoshan on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 01:03 am: Edit Post

Peace All,

If it will help get people on the path again,
First, in our system, the lower basin is trained. To reach the standard is long and painful. No fantasies

The 72 Kicks or Hidden Legs from the Cao branch perspective is taught in the 64 Palm form. The form is split into 32 Palm Techniques and 32 Leg techniques.
How the kick is used depends on what basin your in, thus now what you actually have is 3 techniques (or kicks) or more depending on your flexibility.
Obviously the math doesnít add up. But let me point this out, the original 72 kicks that Yin Fu Taught, was not a form but rather 72 leg techniques. As time has progressed, weíve lost much.
Most of the original 72 kicks have been merged with the surviving Lineages.
But it doesnít matter, why?
Because the way I was taught it, every step in Ba-Gua is a kick. Now what is a kick? In Ba-Gua, A trip can be considered a kick. Hooking the opponentís leg is a kick. Itís all a matter of perspective.
The classical guard stance of Ba-Gua is a scissors kick. Donít believe me? My brother the Black Taoist used it to defeat His opponent from Beijing.
And I donít know if you guys are aware of this, but there is a Cheng side to this as well. The Cheng style comes from a Shuai jiao Practitioner. I learned The Cheng style for 17yrs and was well aware of the 72 kicks when I entered the school. After some time of formal learning from my Sifu,
I asked about kicks. He told me every step was a kick and proceeded to demonstrate various combinations of hooks, kicks, locks, and trips. Ba-Gua is said to be ď30% hands and 70% legsĒ. Most donít analyze their Ba-Gua to itís fullest so they only get the basic understanding of a given technique.
All styles of Ba-Gua have these leg techniques. It depends on the teacher as well as the student.
The teacher:
Must teach the method and theory.
The student:
Must Research and experiment. That is the only way youíll get it.
A lot of people that Iíve seen do Ba-Gua concentrate their steps on maneuvering, thatís cool, but what about application? The term ďHidden legĒ is quite applicable in that all the techniques are hidden in the steps. Itís a matter of extracting them and merging them with your technique.
Also we can use every kick there is, as long as we donít violate the principles. That would require some feat of great will to train to be that good. But thatís old school.
Oh Yeah, and another bit of info, Of the original 10 Disciples of Dong Hai Chuan One was already a kicking expert his name was Shih Qi Tung He was Dongís second student. He was so good that he was even able to evade a kick delivered Dong himself. From that day he was known as Cunning Legs Shih Liu. Iím sure that many of his techniques were incorporated into various lineages.

I could go on, but Iím sure that yaíll get the point.

B.C. Hill Bey
Aka Maoshan

   By Maoshan on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 01:11 am: Edit Post

Also another point,
In Shi Pei Qi's system, There is a form called the 64 Qinna. every technique uses either the kao Bu or Ba bu to off center the opponent.
Research your systems.


   By HiddenPalm on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 05:55 am: Edit Post

Wow! Maoshan, I will definately investigate kicks in every step I take when I spar and when I do forms. Thank you so much for the advice.

About the standard of the lower basin you mentioned. I have been stressing this to my practice partners. But my knowledge is very limited. We have been walking around a tree in the lower basin 64 times and we stand for 45 minutes a day. Well atleast thats the plan. We practice footwork holding rocks up and down hilly terrain also. And we do some muay thai leg conditioning which I really freaking hate but I do anyways because they do what I tell them so I have to do what they say. I guess its only right because they hate the 64. Anyways, what other methods do you know of which can develop the lower basin as a natural way of walking?

Also, my brothers wanted to know if the sparring in your BaGua tournament this september going to be full contact or something else? One of them wanted to know if floor grappling is going to be allowed? I told him the nature of a tournament is limiting to the specific style being celebrated. But, with BaGua you never really know.

In your shadow,

   By jeff k on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:38 am: Edit Post

Thanks Ben, but I thought I had already done a nice job of putting people "back on the path" here.:D I agree with you 110 percent about the steps which has always been a main focus of mine even in my earlier praying mantis training. But I did want to re-emphasis a point I made on the first archive of this thread, just in case people aren't reading back that far. Some of the kicks may also appear obvious to the observer yet not so obvious to the recipient.

Your post was full of good information both historically and in application. It also shows that no matter what family style, all good bagua can be credited to Dong Hai Chuan. One question about the line though. I think Shih Qi Tung could be spelled Shi Jidong? Would that make him Cao's teachers, teacher? That might explain why your kicking form is so indepth.

Also, if you are still lurking Tomasz. Thanks again for the article from Gong village. I had parts translated this weekend and it did verify the dates I mentioned earlier about Gong Bao Tien's life. Happened to mention my Grandmaster too.:) Yet another source which helps my research. By the way, the article contained a photo and in the photo was a portrait on the wall. When I enlarged and enhanced the portrait, it turned out to be a picture of Gong Bao Tien I had never seen. Very interesting. Do you think you could enlarge it from the original magazine photo and try to get a better image of the portrait alone?

Hidden Palm,


what other methods do you know of which can develop the lower basin as a natural way of walking?

When training, as in say circle walking, train with a partner who is trying kick your legs out and take your head off at every turn and change. Stay low when picking your feet up to avoid him/her and sink lower on every change. Simple, right?

   By Baguaboxer on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 01:20 pm: Edit Post

That's funny Jeff... You know, I sent that pic to you a while ago. It's on that large lineage chart under Yin Fu. I know Mr. Hill used to have that chart on his site.
I think I saved the picture somewhere... I'll load it here if I can.
I also have another pic of Gong that I've seen used in Shang Hai.


   By jeff k on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 01:39 pm: Edit Post

Ha, LOL, I couldn't recognize it from the article. Is the other pic the "BIG HEAD" pic? I got that one from someone else. Those two and mine seem to be the only three in the world. If anyone else has any pictures of Gong Bao Tien, PLEEEEASE let me know.

   By Fahim on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 02:03 pm: Edit Post

Jeff> I detect a hint of sarcastic patronizing in the tone of your posts.

Thanks Ben, but I thought I had already done a nice job of putting people "back on the path" here.

Before anyone calls Blacktaoist to tell him his brothers name was brought up in this thread

Jeff, (Count) whatever you call yourself, I hope you are fighting at Ben hills event. If not I hope you don't mind me and you doing a little sparring.

I don't post, but I've read many post on Shen Wu and KFO. I 've read many of your post, and Tell you the truth I think you are all talk. I'm a student of The BlackTaoist and I hope you and me get to spar in the ring if you are fighting at the event. One thing I hate is people like you trying to play my sifu in a deceptive way.

I be the first to say that my sifu is very opinionated, But one thing I know for such is My sifu tell you the truth, no matter if you like it or not. He is the real deal, most people are learning from Chinese teachers and paying mad money and not getting any real methods. I've seen my sifu look out for people and in return that try to play him.
Just like you are try to do Jeff in your own little erroneous way.

I hope me and you get to spar in sep 28. If you like to know who I am. I'm the Black guy my sifu is doing Yin Style Applications on in his Ba Gua overkill web page.

see you soon.

Hey Raz I call you later. There is no need for you to get upset with these fake cats. AS sifu would say: TALK WITH THE PALMS"

   By Meynard on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 02:36 pm: Edit Post

LOL "talk with the palms!" LOL Man, you New York guys say the funniest thing.

   By jeff k on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 03:20 pm: Edit Post

Hey fahim,

My parents call me Jeff. The people I compete with or against call me count. You may call me whatever you know me by. Think whatever you want. Your Sifu knows me and my Sifu. We don't "play" anyone. In fact, we do alot to promote your crew. If you have read my posts here or KFO you will find I only share top shelf info and don't insult people or make internet warrior challanges. But if you are in my weight class you will get your chance to prove whatever you want to. If not, we may get a chance to mess around a bit. In the meantime you might re-read my posts. I don't think your reading them correctly or in the spirit they were intended. When you talk to Randal later, tell him I said hi. Hope I'm not being to "erroneous" for you.