Archive through June 25, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Seventy Two Hidden Kicks of BaguaZhang: Archive through June 25, 2002
   By razakdigital on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 04:35 pm: Edit Post

Jeff (Count),

The reason why it took me so long to get back to your 72 kick questions because my time is too valuable to respond so quickly to statements such as yours. I never stated there is mysticism in pa kua chang. I stated there is too much talk of mysticism in pa kua chang. I was referring to I-Ching b.s. that is supposed define ba gua applications. That so called connection is just a bunch of allegories as the Bible in all of its versions. The Pa Kua masters of the past were not scholars...they were thugs, warriors, and some were involved in what we would term as illegal activities. How could they not be fighters to be China's premier bodyguards? Please spare me with the poems and songs I-Ching spinning in the air and such...Sometimes Pa Kua practitioners of today act more scholarly then the masters of the past... whatever....

My so called generalization of pa kua fighters of today still stands. I'm met some, seen some, and seen videos and websites. You can tell someone’s skill based on their discussion and words just as you can with their intellectual knowledge. True, it is better to touch with someone to be sure - but how do you know that Mike Tyson can hit hard? By observation - you never got hit by him but you know by seeing his fights that he can do damage. How do we know Bruce Lee can really fight? We don’t' have footage of him fighting someone but - we take it for a truth that he can based on his reputation with friends and with his writing. I stand by my own hand and mouth and this has to do with me as a man - I stepped out of the realm of the Brothers of Wudang to answer your post. Again my generalization stands until we see at Ben Hill's Pa Kua tournament.

Second, whatever happened with the tape you were supposed to send us? We sent you a tape and you promise you'd send one back but you never did. What’s up with that? That was a long time ago and to this day no response.

Please don't ask me any more questions about the "72 hidden kicks” Why don’t you show me these kicks at the tournament?

Go see Episode II of Stars Wars (Attack of the clones) and what did that guy say to Yoda before they fought? "Enough talk about the who has knowledge of the force and lets test skills with the light saber" (I'm quoting as best as I can at the moment.)

To Tim Cartmell - I will try not voice any more noise and ruckus on your board anymore because I respect your school and website. I just had to answer this post in the manner that I did. – Thanks.

Mike – I was hoping to spar with you guys when you came down from Syracuse but you guys came too late for my classmate and myself. I do hope to touch with you before the tournament and you have a very knowledge teacher that will help you get to the next level.

Fahim, - Thanks for the shout out. You’re a bad brother because I heard already that you steps to some fake as Pa Kua fighters that you dealt with before and you serve them like dinner to hungry hostage! I heard they were done like a steak and sesame seed bun! Yeah, you know I was heated this weekend! But its okay because now I will do less posting on the web and concentrate on that extra time with my hard core training because its going to a war of wars come Sept. and I will be ready. For some of these fake a** cats, I might not even use my Pa Kua or Hsing-I because it might be a waste of my energy and time. I might just go straight THUG on them. You are right about something else – no more talking with my mouth or keyboard…now I will only talk with Palms and Bengs.

   By Wayne on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 06:40 pm: Edit Post

Razak, I be the frist to say Novell is no phony. Novell is a very cool and down to earth guy, But to tell you the truth I don't think he would react to anything people said like you are doing.

I understand you guys want people to respect your Sifu. But I don't see one post by anyone where they insulted him personally. I only seen one post where a person claim Novell may be posting as somebody, But Novell step up like always and killed that.

I hang out with Novell from time to time in China town, Sometime's we vist other teachers, He gets big respect from many of the teachers down there.
So my point is Rrazak, You can't buy respect you must earn it.
Novell put in his time and many martial artist know that. You have another opportunity thanks to Novell to go back to China and train, You should take that time and train your mind and body.


   By Maoshan on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 08:09 pm: Edit Post

Peace All

This I had to address,
1st, Ya'll have got to calm this down. there is no reason to be taking this, this far.
2nd, There will be no thugging at this tournament. It's all traditional fighting. Anyone
doing contrary to that is out. Period.
3rd, Novell has not been dissed in any way.When such has accured we have always delt with it. I understand your zeal, but we got this. Keep your post to the point and keep your heads.

Hidden Plam

My students hate the 64 as well, but there's no other way. In fact thats light. Look at it from this point of view: each Palm is held for 16 revolutions. Atlest 20-30 are needed to reach a good standard. In the old days some of the teachers would only teach 1 or 2 palms a year. this way the student spent the required time for developing that particular palm. A Palm was held for at lest 100 revolutions. Yin Fu had a student who would walk the circle 300x a day. But who trains like that anymore? If you do the 64 as well as stand not only in the embrace posture but also the palm posture for an hour. Also another type of leg conditioning is push legs. If you know it, it6 can do alot for your leg skills.

As for the fighting at the Tournament.
This year it is only going to be continuous with light contact. It still limits us but we can still have a lot of fun with what we can do.
And remember the fighting is traditional, straight out of a movie for those that don't know except for the fact that there's contact
No Boxing or Kick Boxing. Only techniques applyed with Ba-Gua principles are allowed.

To answer the last part of your question: Some of the harder techniques, such as grappling and throwing could not be allowed this time but believe me I'm working on it. By this time next year I'm hoping to be able to truly let the guys use their full technique (short of death that is). This tournament is for us to research and experiance our art so that we can raise the standard generally as well as personally

B.C. Hill Bey

   By jeff k on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:39 pm: Edit Post


but how do you know that Mike Tyson can hit hard?

I'll bite?:D Say Ben, are you gonna have a division for light saber?

Seriously Razak, I agree with you that connecting the I-ching to fighting is a stretch. Where did you get the impression that I subscribe to that? Only to Yin and Yang and the bagua. Much like your teacher wrote about on his website. But the Songs must be understood either through direct teaching or through reading. Too bad none of the translations got it completely right. I guess that's where having a Chinese teacher or one who speaks Chinese could be helpful.(Fahim, BTW you'd be surprised how little of my mad money I actually spend.)

Seriously, we can play bagua when we meet up, let's get back to the conversation.:) What about my question about Shih Qi Tung?

   By Bob on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:57 pm: Edit Post

get a bunch of martial artists together and sooner or later there is a tish

   By Maoshan on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 01:11 am: Edit Post

What's up Jeff?
as to your question, The spelling you have is correct. I pulled it from memory and I wasn't quit sure.
as to the second part of your question:
Cao Zhong Sheng had 3 teachers in Ba-Gua His first was Fu WenYuan who was a student of Ma Gui with whom he studied for a year. During this time he also began to learn from Ma. After a year or so both Fu and Ma Recommended that he learn from Yin Fu at his school. Cao studied with Yin and Ma at Yin's school for 10yrs.
after which he joined the Yi Ho Society. but I think you can guess the rest. He passed his skill to Chi Shi Xin who in turn passed it on to our Sifu Chen Xiao ping and he to us.

I hope that answers your question.
Looking forward to seeing you at the Tournament.


   By jeff k on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:31 am: Edit Post

Yes, it makes sense. Thankyou! It's a facinating lineage. I'm looking forward to see some in person.

   By Tim on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 11:11 am: Edit Post

I have a question for students of the Black Taoist: who do you guys train with when you go to China?

   By Fahim on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 03:03 pm: Edit Post

I know my Sifu Novell trains with Master Zhang lie, Who is his Pa Kua teacher Chen Xiao ping brother, who I met a few times at my sifu house, Also My brothers train with Master Su Si Xi of Bejing. But anyone can see the photo's of both men on my sifu Web Site.
If you have anymore questions you can email my sifu, I'm such Novell can answer them better then I can.

   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 03:07 pm: Edit Post

I don't understand this tournament. It sounds like people playing kung fu fantasy fight. I don't think it can be called a tournament. Maybe it's a play demonstration, not a tournament. How could anyone have traditional fighting straight out of a movie? What the heck is that? Are you guys saying that traditional fighting in ba gua should look like a kung fu movie? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I just don't get what you guys are doing. You are taking grappling and throwing out of a ba gua, playing slap fights and calling it a ba gua tournament.

Can someone explain this to me?

   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:21 pm: Edit Post

All of the sudden no one responds...interesting.

A couple more questions.

1. Who gets to decide what traditional ba gua fighting should look like?

2. If ba gua is an art based on principals not techniques then why are you guys emphasizing using only ba gua techniques? If a certain technique is used with ba gua principles don't they become bagua techniques? So all available techniques can be called ba gua techniques...confusion...

3. What are "ba gua only" techniques? Who determines that?

Technically a fighter can throw a roundhouse kick to the leg and say, "I used ba gua principles". Or they can do wrapping and make it look like a parry and short hook from boxing. They can say in our ba gua style that's how we apply wrapping.

What's the deal blacktaoist and moashan? It just doesn't make sense...

   By jeff k on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:24 pm: Edit Post

Hey Meynard,

As I understand the rules, any bagua technique is acceptable. That means throws and grappling allowed, save some lethal locks and strikes. The idea is to encourage people to use their style. Not resort to kickboxing which is what usually happens in these tournaments where people have a weak foundation in their training. The way my teacher puts it is "Everybody fights the same style", and it isn't kung fu either. People and Judges are usually amazed when they recognize the style we fight with. But we train in baguazhang and we feel we should use what we train instead of resorting to some hybrid, generic style. Ben wants his tournament to be baguazhang and I for one applaud the effort and intend to support it by traveling from California to do that. How about some of you guys over there joining us? Right now they think were all "Granola" here in LA LA Land.;)

   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit Post

hey Jeff,

It says no grappling or throwing. That's what Moashan just said on the above thread. Read it.

I'm all for it. I think it's great that they're putting the effort to do something like this. The rules just don't make sense to me.

Also I think it's ridiculous to pay $55 for a pseudo tournament. I may pay $10 if they pay for my plane ticket to go over there.

You're in L.A. right? I work at CSLA we can just play here.

   By Tazo_Tea on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:48 pm: Edit Post

It's kinda like this one recent tournament, when this one school invited few Kickboxers and Muy Thai guys and then eliminated punches to the head as part of the fighting rules... :P

   By jeff k on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:07 pm: Edit Post

Sorry, I didn't see that. What a shame. Anyway Meynard, I know you guys have class on Saturday too. But if you can swing by Monterey Park between 9 and noon I think you would be welcome to join in. Pretty much anything goes in our sparring. Definately throws and locks. Pretty mixed crowd of bagua, and baji. I think you'd have fun. Just drop me a line if you want directions. BTW, you probably already know this, but Jason has some pretty good workshops at CSLA. So far this year we've done Baji/Piqua and 64 palms seminars. There pretty in-depth and definately a physical challenge.

Ben, You have to do something with that grappling rule. Maybe just a break after a throw so no finishing techniques get in?

   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:10 pm: Edit Post

It's not the same thing. A palm strike to the head effectively simulates a closed fist and reduces the chance of hand and head injury.

You're side stepping the questions. Why don't you answer the questions?

hey Jeff,

Are you guys in Barnes Park? I might go this weekend.

   By jeff k on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:44 pm: Edit Post

No, that would be the other bagua/hsing-i Teacher named Gong. We are by the school, in the park on Cusuda Canyon. It's by the Hi-Ho Market. I just e-mailed you the address.

   By Tazo_Chai on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 05:50 pm: Edit Post

Yep, it's like inviting a bunch of BJJ guys, then eliminating all the groundfighting and making them do Push Hands. Tell them that it "effectively simulates" grappling, then remain undefeated... :P

   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 06:13 pm: Edit Post

uumm...there was a lot of grappling (stand up and groundfighting). I don't think you know what you're talking about. Where you there? I video taped the whole thing and there was a lot of grappling. Did you see the armbar by Matt in the virtual academy? The BJJ guys had ample opportunity to use ALL of their techniques. Ask anyone who was there.

By the way you still haven't answered any of the questions I asked.

   By BlackTaoist on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:36 pm: Edit Post

Yo, I'm not going to keep posting about this same old rule Topic, For one its a waste of my time and energy. And Two most of you internet Kung fu fighters are not coming to the event anyway. So what do I care what you think about my Classmate tournament rules.

For one this is my classmate Ben Hill event, I am helping him out with it, But I play a very little part in it. He has other Masters helping him pull this $hit off. So no matter what, There are going to be a lot of Ba Gua Zhang practitioners there that day with their students, So we can careless what people have to say an the internal. Most Internal martial art people on the internet are all talk and no show anyway. I can count the people on one hand that post on the internet that have real skill and know what the •••• their talking about, the rest is living in a fantasy land of I-ching trigrams and dead famous Ba Gua Zhang masters.

Meynard-All of the sudden no one responds...interesting

BT) people work. Its called a J.O.B"
And way Let me respond to your Question, As Jeff said in his post any bagua technique is acceptable. That means throws and grappling allowed. The only thing not allowed is ground grappling.
Also you are allowed to utilize Shun Pu, K'ou Pu, and Pai Pu leg techniques to throw yor opponent to the ground. So what are you talking about there is no throwing allowed. Come on man we talking Ba Gua Zhang here Man.

What Ben is looking for is the characteristics of Ba Gua Zhang within the Ba Gua practitioner when their fighting, I don't care if you did a flying kick or fist technique, it better look like Ba Gua Zhang fighting characteristics, Advancing, retreating, dodging, unfolding, shifting attacking...ect It all better have the characteristics of a true trained Ba Gua Zhang pratitioner.
What We don't want to see is Karate like fighting characteristics, boxing, kickboxing, Tai boxing or steet fighting, If I want to see that I can look out my window in the hood.