Archive through June 26, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Seventy Two Hidden Kicks of BaguaZhang: Archive through June 26, 2002
   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 07:55 pm: Edit Post

Hey BT,

Read what Moashan posted:

"Some of the harder techniques, such as grappling and throwing could not be allowed this time but believe me I'm working on it."

There seems to be an incongruency between what you are saying and what Moashan is saying.

Could you address my questions one at a time. I'm trying to get an understanding as to how this tournament actually works. What is looking like ba gua? According to Moashan it should look like it's straight out of a movie. What is that??? So now real ba gua should look like movie ba gua because you guys said so?

Also: "Advancing, retreating, dodging, unfolding, shifting attacking..." Aren't these characteristics present in other fighting situation?

Nobody is giving me a direct answer. Everybody is sidestepping. Oh well.


   By BlackTaoist on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:00 pm: Edit Post

Meynard Here are all the rules, You will see that you are allowed to throw yor opponent to the ground, and you are even allowed to utilize Elbow and forearm techniques are to strike only the body of the opponent (chest protector). I hope this information helps you. But we know you was not coming to the event in the first place...LOL Ben If you reading this you need to be paying me for this $hit.


Continuous Fighting


First and foremost, All fighting is to be done in a traditional manner.

Protection must be used for the head, chest, mouth, groin, and feet as well as shin pads. The use of Kenpo Gloves will be employed to enable competitors to use palm strikes. Divisions will be determined on the day of the competition. All bouts will be three two min rounds. Fighting time and the clock will stop as dictated by the Referee. The winner is declared by a majority vote by the referee and judges. Winner of the best 2 rounds wins the fight.

Rules

Competitors will stand facing each other about 4 feet apart.
Both competitors Toe out with their left foot and step to their left with their right legs, and extend their right arms out toward each other. Competitors should now be in the traditional BaGuaZhang guard stance.
Both Competitors walk clockwise once around the circle. On the last step both competitors may attack utilizing BaGuaZhang techniques.

Important Point:

Opponents must use Ba-Gua style fighting. No Brawling, No Boxing, No Kickboxing. The goal here is to use Traditional BaGuaZhang with all itís characteristics to win. If other than Ba-Gua Zhang is used, you will receive one warning, on the second warning the other opponent wins, Period.


Legal/Illegal Techniques


Allowed Techniques:
#1. Palm strikes and fist strikes allow to face and body.
#2. Lead leg Sweeping techniques as well as takedowns with the use of Kou Bu , Ba bu and Shen Bu are allowed to take their opponent to the ground.


#3. Kicking techniques are allowed to the side of head and body. Leg trapping is also allowed.
#4. Tui Shou (push hands)-stick and neutralize only long enough for an opening.


#5. Palm strikes to the side of head, the front of face mask (cheek area), front and side of body (collarbone down), the outside thigh and calf are allowed.


#6. Elbow and forearm techniques are allowed to strike only the body of the opponent (chest protector).


#7. Hooking the lead leg.



TECHNIQUES THAT ARE PROHIBITED

#1. No strikes are allowed to the eyes, throat, and testes.


#2. No strikes are allowed to the back of the skull or any back area of opponent.


#3. No neck strikes or strikes to the spinal vertebrae are allowed.


#4. No strikes to the knees are allowed.


#5. No elbow techniques are allowed to strike the face, throat, neck, or any back area.

Warnings
1.Illegal techniques
2.Contact to a non-contact area
3.Excessive force (w/out malice or intent)
4.Failure to break on the call


Disqualification
1.If an injury occurs to an opponent as a result of a foul
2.Accumulating 4 warnings
3.Running out of the ring, second offense
4.Repeated and deliberately use of excessive force

5. Chinna


Immediate Disqualification
1.Deliberate excessive force/intent to injure
2.Deliberate fouling
3.Rude or belligerent behavior
4.Use of objectionable or abusive language by a competitor or by their school.


Legal contact areas: Chest, outside of thigh, outside of the shin, entire arm, and front and side of head gear)


Illegal Targets
1.Back and top of the head
2.Spine
3.Neck and throat
4.Entire knee and knee joint


Illegal Techniques
1.Knee strikes
2.Elbow strikes
3.Finger strikes
4.Joint locking or breaking attempts
5.Head butts
6.Biting
7.Groin strikes
8.Inside of thigh
9.Shin, other than to check the leg only
10.Floor or ground fighting




Ba Gua Zhang Push Hands Rules

1# Opponents touch at the wrist assuming the traditional stance.
2# Walk one full revolution and begin.
3# The goal is to uproot, push your opponent out of the circle, or trip the opponent making them fall.

4# Continuous contact must be maintained.
5# Opponents must display clear Alignment, Kou Bu Ba Bu, and Sticking, wrapping and coiling.
6# The principle of Rise, Fall Drill and Overturn must be seen.
7# Continuous movement and change of tactics must be present.


   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:16 pm: Edit Post

Hey BT,

I've read the rules before.

Here's where I have problems with:

1. What is the traditional manner, how is it going to be determined and who determines it?

2. What's bagua style fighting? Again, how is that determined?


   By BlackTaoist on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:42 pm: Edit Post

Hey Meynard I'm not sidestepping anyone. I just answer your Question, What more do you want me to say, What do you not understand my Brother.

I say it one more time, What we are looking for is the characteristics of Ba Gua Zhang in the practitioner fighting style.

Also: "Advancing, retreating, dodging, unfolding, shifting attacking..." Aren't these characteristics present in other fighting situation?

BT) Yes the above Characteristics are present in other fighting situation as well as other martial art styles. But they are not the same when practitioners of other methods utilize the above Characteristics in a real situation.

Do a Tai Boxer move or fight like a karate man, do a Tai Chi fighter fight and move like a Hsing Yi Boxer, or a praying Mantis man move and utilize the same techniques of a Ba Gua Zhang man, I think not my brother.

Each style have their on characteristics in utilizing their theory and applications in combat.

Anyway maybe Ben should have word is post better, because nothing I teach is movie Ba Gua Zhang. My Yin Ba Gua Zhang Method is all about practical combat.

Anyway Meynard Ben just made a mistakes, the man is only human.


   By Black Taoist on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:04 pm: Edit Post

1. What is the traditional manner, how is it going to be determined and who determines it?

BT)I Answer your first question already, As for for who determine it, that will be Ben hill and the Ba Gua Zhang teachers at the event, these are just a few of The Ba Gua Zhang teachers that I know will be there.


Chen Xiao Ping

Li Tai Liang

Jason Tsou

Liang Qiang-Ya

Victor Fu

Nick Gracinin

Jerry Allen Johnson

Frank Allen

John Painter

2. What's bagua style fighting? Again, how is that determined?

My brother I answer that question already.

Peace


   By Meynard on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 09:31 pm: Edit Post

BT,

You haven't really answered my questions to my satisfaction. Who cares, maybe I just don't get it. Anyway, good luck with it.


   By CoolHandLuke on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:38 pm: Edit Post

Meynard,

I really do not understand your concern.Don't worry about it.

You know,just leave it up to the likes of John Painter...and Jerry Alan Johnson...they will sort out the technical discrepencies just fine.

If you get disqualified...no problem.I am sure one of the "judges" will have a spare mask or two lying around so as to re enter the fray unrecognized.Heck,for the first time in your life you may look Chinese

Say,does Ba Kua do the Texas Doubletake?


   By Maoshan on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 02:13 am: Edit Post

Maynard


My brother responded very eloquently in my behalf. Thanks man.
but, i'm here now....but before I begin I have a question, Why did you come off like this? You could have e-mailed me or called me and you would have gotten the answer you wanted. But no.
you want to keep the bickering going right?
But I don't have time to play with you right now,
but I will answer your questons:


1st- 1. (What is the traditional manner?)

My bother answered your question, but as too the
question about " it being like a Kung fu movie".
What style of fighting do you know? Ba-Gua is Ba-Gua. If you were a true practitioner you would know that. If your a beginner than I fore give you, but if not... Do some more homework.


how is it going to be determined and who determines it?
What's bagua style fighting? Again, how is that
determined?

The Masters!
(What's bagua style fighting?)
If you have to ask this question than you don't know, which varifies my hypothisis that you don't know a lot about Ba-Gua. So now I ask, What do you care? Are you just making noise? just because? What's up with you? I don't know you. you deffenitly don't know me. Are you having fun?


"(Also I think it's ridiculous to pay $55 for a pseudo tournament. I may pay $10 if they pay for my plane ticket to go over there.)"

Yo check this out,
Who are you that I should care what you think. Your on the west coast right? Stay there. These are standard east coast prices. Are you from a small town or something? $10 is all you have to pay to compete?
I really don't think you know Ba-Gua.
[A pseudo tournament?] Now I know that you don't know nothing.
This a pure Kung Fu Tournament. All Traditional.
Done Annually for the last 20yrs.

Enough of this i'm out


   By HiddenPalm on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 02:55 am: Edit Post

I'm going to foward this to my training crew, if you dont mind. It will encourage their training.

"My students hate the 64 as well, but there's no other way. In fact thats light. Look at it from this point of view: each Palm is held for 16 revolutions. Atlest 20-30 are needed to reach a good standard. In the old days some of the teachers would only teach 1 or 2 palms a year. this way the student spent the required time for developing that particular palm. A Palm was held for at lest 100 revolutions. Yin Fu had a student who would walk the circle 300x a day. But who trains like that anymore? If you do the 64 as well as stand not only in the embrace posture but also the palm posture for an hour. Also another type of leg conditioning is push legs. If you know it, it6 can do alot for your leg skills."
-Maoshan


I'll also try to convince them about the tournament. Im sure they will understand the BaGua only rules even though they come from a progressive background. But since they also do alot of bagua two-man conditioning drills, standing, ,palm drills, lower basin circle walking, other footwork drills stretches and sparring in the past months, i'm sure they would want to test their new bagua skills. Hopefully.


To all you crazy cats out there in the world, and before your desktops. I have one quote for ya'll: "The dark side clouds everything" - Yoda

Hiddenpalm - a fly in the wind not yet a Dragon.


   By Meynard on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:28 am: Edit Post

Why do you people get so offended?

I just wanted someone to clarify several things that no one seems to be able to answer in any satisfactory manner.

I asked because you're tournament description didn't make any sense to me. I hoped that maybe you can clear things up. I guess not.

The proper answer to my questions should been something like this: "After several years of extensive historical as well as practical research and training with ba gua masters/teachers and Historians in Asia, Europe and America we have determined that back in the late 1800's ba gua fighters traditionally fought in this manner...etc etc etc. According to historical documents challenge matches were set up this way...etc etc etc Now we've decided to pattern our tournament similar to...etc etc etc...because..."

You would then proceed to give example of fights fought in the manner you described and then you would give some references so that others may verify the accuracy of your findings. Did any of you do that? NO. Instead you got upset and started crying foul because you couldn't answer my questions properly. Whatever. Maybe I was asking too much...


   By race bannon on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 09:14 am: Edit Post

as an east coater, I have to take offense at these rash generalizations of all of us being beligerent, reactionary morons and I will personally stomp the ass of anyone who wants to step up in my grill and play those games!

anyways...

I really am on the east coast and I think the usually opinionated Meynard has been pretty even handed about questioning the rules of the upcoming bout. My thoughts are that if you have a couple of guys circle walk and then on a given step the go at it, it's not really realistic. Why can't they just square off and use their bagua? Yeah, people are going to fall back on brawling at a certain point, but it'll be up to the judges and the coaches to refocus them (tell the fighter to try and use one technique from the single palm change). You guys say that this is the "traditional" way to do it, but I just don't believe it. "Traditionally" no one wore chest protectors and they defenitely went for the eyes and the groin.

I'm not going to convince you guys one way or the other. I'll probably go to the tournament just to spectate. I suspect the fighting is going to be awkward and halting as a lot of your judges are going to try and figure out what's traditional and what's not. How's this for traditional, "Hit him till he drops."

Now you guys can come at me and call me ignorant and say that I don't know how the MASTERS really do it (by the way, as far as the term "master" goes, I've found the old saying "Those who do, don't say and those who say, don't do." to be invariably true. If someone is has to tout themselves as a "master", it's usually less that true.).

But have fun, fellas. I'll be heckling from the stands.


   By jeff k on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:47 am: Edit Post

Now see, that's the difference between a contest and a brawl. There has to be some way to test your skills without going to war. In a brawl, where you just want to break the other guys neck, you don't square off either!!! In a friendly contest the fighters touch hands and go. At first I thought the fighters walking the circle before entering was funny, but maybe it's a good way to get people going in the right direction.

What I really think is funny is going to a "so called" kung fu tournament and seeing the fighters punching, kicking and grabbing wildly without any resemblance to what the teacher has been teaching them. What happens to the years of training? Is that what you consider skill? Even worse, hoards of people doing Tai Chi in the park, not even realizing they are learning a brutal killing art.

As far as the protective equipment, I'm pretty sure laws have changed since 1800 and insurance companies probably wouldn't have covered some of the death matches your talking about. But if your looking for that kind of action, there are a few places that still fight that way. Ask, and I know at least one of the previous posters could set you up. Make sure your will is in order though.;)

This is going to be the first tournament of it's kind that I know of. I'm sure it will evolve over time. Rules change, quality of the fighting improves, and the general interest will increase. But it has to start somewhere. To you guys who just want to come and watch, and your not the only one I'm talking to race bannon, your support in the way of a ticket purchase should not go un-noticed. :D But instead of sitting there, how about joining in and showing what you think bagua skill really is?


   By BlackTaoist on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:31 am: Edit Post

Meynard-Why do you people get so offended?

BT)I never got offended, But I'm not going to answer the same ••••••• questions over and over, If my answer is not to your So Called satisfactory manner, to Bad.


The bottom line is, the web is full of internet suckers that love to talk Bull$hit most of you up here don't even have a profile, posting like you are internal specialist, when in fact most of you internet suckers can't even utilize Ba Gua Zhang in a real fight, but you want to talk about what you can utilize in a tournament.

Talk, talk, talk, is all I keep hearing from you internet martial specialist, or should I call you guys internet discussion masters. I met so many of you discussion masters from the internet most of them was from KFO not tim web page. But my point is out of the the many that I met only two people had some skill, the rest didn't have $hit. So when I see motherfuckers from the internet talking $hit, I see them as a ••••••• joke"

race bannon-I really am on the east coast and I think the usually opinionated Meynard has been pretty even handed about questioning the rules of the upcoming bout. My thoughts are that if you have a couple of guys circle walk and then on a given step the go at it, it's not really realistic. Why can't they just square off and use their bagua? Yeah, people are going to fall back on brawling at a certain point, but it'll be up to the judges and the coaches to refocus them (tell the fighter to try and use one technique from the single palm change). You guys say that this is the "traditional" way to do it, but I just don't believe it.

BT)Race Bannon Tell you what, the day of Ben Hill event make yourself known too me. And I show you first hand the traditional Ba Gua Zhang unrehearse, at no point when I'm fighting you will I go in to brawling. If I have to go in to brawling with a motherfucker then my skill level in Yin Ba Gua Zhang is very low. Anyway race bannon you said you be there heckling from the stands, well like the show, tne price is right come on down from the stands and lets freefight...LOL Hope to see you there.


   By Tom on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:45 pm: Edit Post

This is the first tournament I've seen where the focus will be on baguazhang. These guys tried last year, and for various reasons it didn't come together. Ben Hill should be commended for his perseverance. No one else is doing anything like this to promote baguazhang.

As far as the rules go, it's a first attempt at coming up with some coherent guidelines. They will evolve with feedback given with positive good will. It's not much different than what taijiquan push-hands competitions face. Yes, the judgment on what will be allowed as "authentic baguazhang technique" will vary. There is no way to avoid controversy in judging an event like this. There is controversy in the refereeing and judging of fighting sports with long-established rules limiting technique like boxing or wrestling. The difficulties--and the potential--are no different here.


   By Meynard on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 01:59 pm: Edit Post

BT,

No one is saying anything about being internal masters or talking about what we can or can't do. That's not what was being asked or discussed. Specific questions were posited that you and your group seem unable to answer without any sort of objectivity.


   By Tim on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:08 pm: Edit Post

Fahim,
Thanks for your reply.

Like Tom said above, this is the first tournament of its kind, specifically designed for Ba Gua Zhang fighters. When there is no precedent, it is very difficult to come up with a set of rules that will be to everyone's satisfaction. Like all contact tournaments, you need to balance 'realistic' technique with safety. You have to have rules and you have to have some form of protective gear.

Ben put alot of time and effort into his tournament, it won't be perfect, but the next one will be better. And he's the only one doing it.

It's easy to criticize from the sidelines. Once you've stepped on the mat yourself, you get a different point of view.


   By Meynard on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:15 pm: Edit Post

According to Moashan there is precedent. This is what he said in his last post.

"This a pure Kung Fu Tournament. All Traditional.
Done Annually for the last 20yrs."


   By Tom on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:18 pm: Edit Post

Pure "kung fu" could be anything from traditional CMAs, Meynard. There hasn't been anything that attempts to maintain a focus on baguazhang in particular. If there had been, Ben would be using it as a reference to see what worked by way of rules and what didn't.


   By Meynard on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 03:24 pm: Edit Post

"This a pure Kung Fu Tournament. All Traditional.
Done Annually for the last 20yrs."

When he said THIS, I took it as if he was referring to his tournament because THAT is the topic of discussion.


   By Anvar on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 05:09 pm: Edit Post

Here is an excerpt from "US Wushu/Kungfu Competition Rules and Judging Guidelines" (http://www.uswushuunion.com/uswu/resources/us_rules.html#a9) - just to illustrate the point that style adherence requirement is not something new.

"Judging Guidelines: Each competitor shall be scored based on demonstration of fighting skills in the following five categories:

...

e. Overall Impression
(1) Uses a variety of footwork, hand/leg techniques, attack combinations, defensive maneuvers and counter-strikes
(2) Controls the match through either a variety of successful attacks, or the ability to defend and successfully counter the majority of the opponent's attacks
(3) Utilizes the ring area effectively and stays in ring
(4) Does not lose composure; shows concentration and calm demeanor
(5) Displays obvious elements of a Chinese martial arts style
"