"Just like I said in the post above fighting in Bagua is a minimal skill. Training applications and techniques until they are ingrained is not Bagua. That is why they are not stressed but the priciples are."

The question then is what part of your vastly-expanded art is what was passed on by Dong Hai Chuan. Dong was hired as a bodyguard and a trainer of bodyguards and security personnel. The core of what he taught was fighting principles and applications.

All the other aspects--the philosophical speculations, the healing practices--are overlays onto what Dong taught his students. For example, the noted Chinese martial arts historian Kang Ge Wu (a baguazhang student of Sha Guo Zhen)has a manuscript written by a Qing Dynasty court scholar (and student of Yin Fu), indicating that it was not until very late in his career, after he'd left the Imperial Palace, that Dong began to mutter about possible correlations between his martial art (originally called Zhuan Zhang)and the Yi Jing (hence the later name of Baguazhang or Baguaquan).

For healing arts, check out the source of the "Baguazhang Healing Arts" peddled by Xie Peiqi and Andrew Nugent-Head (www.traditionalstudies.org). In an interview, Dr. Xie said that most of what he learned came from a Qing Dynasty Imperial physician, Wen Peiting:

"Chinese say that medicine and martial arts come from the same root (Yi Wu Tong Yuan). Although I learnt Baguazhang and some medicine from my master Men Baozhen, most of my knowledge in medicine comes from Wen Peiting, who was Yin Fu's kungfu brother and imperial doctor (Yu Yi). I learnt mainly Tuina (Chinese traditional massage) and some Zhenggu (Bonesetting). My kungfu brother, Liu Shoushan, professor at the College of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Beijing, learnt mainly Zhenggu." (from http://homepages.msn.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/baguazhangXPQ_new1.htm)

The point is that baguazhang was originally, in its core teaching, a fighting art. Dong Hai Chuan, its founder, did not teach abstruse philosophy or Chinese medicine. Those are aspects added to the core art later. To minimize the importance of the fighting aspects or to attribute the philosophy and medicine to Dong Hai Chuan (even just as a transmitter of those skills)is misleading.

And it is misleading to imply, without proof, that some ancient and mystical "woman's baguaquan" tradition was taught in the Imperial palace. The only references to that are in Dr. Guen's own mind. Outside of Dr. Guen's mind, there is the story of Yin Fu acting on the advice of the Empress Dowager's eunuch and pharmacologist to create a special form and training manual for Her Highness when the tyrannical and out-of-shape lady insisted on being taught baguazhang. I wouldn't hang an ancient tradition on that.

Of course, it's all good marketing, especially in northern California. As is the insistent implication that the only "true" baguaquan was that taught in the Imperial Palace. Then through an illiterate, opium-addicted has-been bodyguard to a newspaper editor who apparently never had occasion to use the MARTIAL art of baguazhang/quan to protect himself or anyone else during the course of his long and much-reflected-upon life.

What Lincoln means to say is that they really don't have any actual fighting skilll. But, they do have lots of theories and claims to a higher level of bagua. Uhuh...

You have to train for years and have faith in this high level art passed down from the imperial palace. Don't look anywhere else because your mind might get polluted by other incomplete pedestrian arts.

I would like to state that quan part of Baguaquan means system. When I said in my post above that it means complete system does not mean that the system is still complete. And like I said above I am not trying to say that it is better than what anyone else does. It just seems that this particular style of Bagua is always being critisized. I just have to say one thing about that, It is very easy to be a critic when your sitting in front of your mom's computer. I am more than happy to show anyone my minimal skill.

Meynard,
After reviewing your video clips on this site of you sparring,(I am assuming it is you), I do not think that you are in a position to judge ANYONE'S fighting skill.

Long Gong,
Why are you hiding behind this false name? What makes you such an expert on this particular style of Bagua? I think that you have been very disrespectful about something that I do not think that you have any sort of inner knowledge of.

Lincoln

Lincoln, for me to judge something I have to see it. Therefor I'm not judging but speculating based on your statements. There's a difference.

I suspect that you have zero bagua fighting ability. Don't take it personally. I just haven't seen any videos of you sparring. Why don't you send me some examples. email me and I'll give you a mailing address. If you want you can stop by the dojo and give us a demonstration during an open mat session.

I'd spar with you anytime. There would be no question about ability afterwards.

Ah.., the fighting cocks, crowing about fighting skills and issuing challenges over the net. Settle your chi, getting through life is tough enough, without putting your own heads on the chopping block. You're arguing over dog scraps. The facts are as they are, and no amount of claim and counter-claim is going to change that. Do you truly believe that a greater understanding of these facts, whatever they are, is going to help?

The time of the old masters is past. Until someone invents a time machine, these debates are nothing more than an interesting and at times amusing sideline or minor distraction. Don't obssess with them, the way to the truth is and has always been through hard work and training. No secrets, just dedicated training and sincerity.

Damn! I'm glad to find out that BuaGuawhatever doesn't really concentrate on fighting skills! All those sweeps and reaps and throws and circular-thingies really hurt...

Meynard: If you promise to teach BuaGuawhatever like it's supposed to be taught (no emphasis on fighting) I might start taking classes again.

This is perfect for old guys like me. I could obtain a "higher level", or something like that, without having to worry about getting hit or kicked or those circular thingies... I could cultivate my mind, and my higher-level self would follow... Yeah, that's what I want...

Hey John, maybe you should talk to Lincoln about that because I don't know anything about imperial bagua and their higher level teaching. I'm one of the common folks doing bagua. I'm not part of the grand imperial lineage.

I never said that there are no applications or fighting taught. I said that they are not drilled until they become ingrained. There are many applications and "techniques", but Bagua is not about tricks. It is about priciple.

As far as I am concerned I was challenged and I accepted. If anyone is interested to see a poor representation of Gong Bao Zhai's Baguaquan I will be at the Bagua Tournament in New Jersey in September. It is so much easier to get your point across in person than in front of a plasma tube. I know this is all falling on blind eyes. Everyone already seems to have crystal clear perception of what Bagua is and is not. I guess the state of Bagua in this country is not as bad as I had thought.

Lincoln

Hey Lincoln, are you talking about Ben Hill's tournament? Have fun and good luck.

That would be the one.

Lincoln,
I saw where you where challanged... but I don't see where you accepted. Maybe I read to fast.

Do you know if clips from Ben's tournament will be put on the net?

I came here looking for info on Baguazhang and well ... what can I say ? ... This is like a scene from a children's playground. If you all put in as much energy into training as you do wasting time on petty little arguments and challenges you might just one day be good at your art. If you really can't tear yourself away from your pc try and make some constructive descussion instead of destructive boring, waffle.

Jason,
Thanks for the model post on constructive discussion.

Meynard,
After reviewing your video clips on this site of you sparring,(I am assuming it is you), I do not think that you are in a position to judge ANYONE'S fighting skill.


Lincoln you are so right.

keep posting Laurence...ignorance and stupidity is really fun to read.

Lincoln and Laurence,

Maybe one of you can help me out..

I'm new to the internal arts (I've only had 2 bagua classes). I've been trying to find video of bagua being used in unrehearsed fighting against a non-bagua combatant. I've been all over the internet and the only stuff I can find of an unrehearsed nature is the Shenwu stuff.It seems a lot of classical schools don't do the tournament thing but I find it hard to believe there is no video footage out there.

Can you or anyone else recommend a site or video clips or a video I can purchase to use as a model?

I have to admit it is hard to understand how to fight with an art when I don't have an "ideal" or example in my mind to model.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Geeez, another freakin lamb to the slaughter. Seriously is there someone out there clowning, I mean cloning you guys?

probably you don't see much video of ba Gua people sparring with non ba gua people because most schools very rarely do it.

When they do it looks sloppy and horrible and if they did put it up on the web they would be open to lots of comments on how bad their skill is.

If you practise Ba Gua and what to know what it looks like in sparring there's one way you do it, go out and spar.

Lincoln, Lawrence, I was wondering if you could be so kind as to publish some footage of you sparring in a full contact competition so I could compare it to Meynards.

Guys, Guys,
Any Bagua is Royal Bagua. Dong Heichuan was the Martial Master of the Royal house. There are no secrets only some know and others do not. If you think there are, study both Yin Fu and Cheng styles to their fullest. By the time you get through all that you will be qualified to rediscover or invent new secrets yourself and the old ones (If they exist) won't matter.

I'm betting that if you do do that you will find it's all in the 8 Mother palms anyway.

http://www.royaldragonusa.net

Geez...another one!