What do you mean by that?

he means he thinks all of "US" that know true internal MA are bunch of lamo weak mofos and couldn't defend our way out of a paper bag. He thinks WE hide behind legends of old and have NOTHING to show for ourselves in 2002.

That the ultimate in MA is Mixed MA. The ultimate in stick fighting is Mad dog brothers or whatever (again just like UFC...not 'real' fighting...in real fighting you're not taking a stick hit and press reset). That his way is supreme.

He thinks our fists and fa jing is horse crap...and internal strikes are fairy tales.

Bottom line is He's never faught a true internal stylist becuase there are so few 'good' people around. He's never felt an internal strike or he would know what he's missing.

"US" obviously isn't familiar with Tim Cartmell's reputation and fajin/internal abilities... nor that Meynard is one of the few students who has the balls to regularly pit himself against Tim in Meynards quest for self improvement. (I'd bet this weeks paycheck that Meynard has felt more 'FaJin' and 'internal strikes' than the average practioner could ever stomach. (I've enjoyed witnessing a few of them).

And I'm certain that 'US'es interpretation of Meynard's comment is not exactly what Meynard was saying.

Kudos to shane, the statement is open-ended, is he agreeing with me, mocking me, or just playing with me? Has he committed himself to a position or is it just a feint to draw you out.

you guys claim to be internal boxers, i hope you aren't as careless with your words as you are with your internal energy. A few choice words and you rush in all committed and you bite the dust before you know it. Here all you've lost is a bit of face, in real life obviously there is alot more at stake.

Veteran fighters aren't eager to jump in at the first opportunity for gain, they sit back and wait for the right time to strike. They are also willing to give a liitle to gain alot. True skill lies in being able to change while appearing to be the same, to take on appearances to remain hidden.

"you guys claim to be internal boxers"
reply]
First, "I" never claimed to be an internal boxer. Tai Tzu Chaung Chuan is primarily an external art similar to any styles of Chinese Long Fist (Only with more close range applications too)


Now, I also know the entire Chao family taji system except for the sword form. I have only memorised the sequence, and I am still learning how to develop and fight with internal principals.

There, that's where I'm at.

As for the whole internal boxer thing, internal simply means useing the core of the body to generate power instead the limbs. That is about it. Power is generated in the stomach, and radiates outwards towards the ground and also up to the shoulders where it is then transmited though the arms into the opponent for defense or attack. The power going down braces off the ground and adds to the power going up.

I am talking about power as physical movement or mechanical energy, not some metaphysical, supernatural "Chi" force.

It takes quite a lot of time to develop the ability, and it requires very fine motor control but the method multiplies the power normaly generated in the limbs from a normal attack. That is why many learn an external art first.

The above is the real differance between the internal and external arts. It's nothing mystical, only mechanical superiority. You still have to learn how to fight pretty much the same as anyone else.

You said
"Veteran fighters aren't eager to jump in at the first opportunity for gain, they sit back and wait for the right time to strike. They are also willing to give a liitle to gain alot. True skill lies in being able to change while appearing to be the same, to take on appearances to remain hidden. "

Reply]
This is the essence of internal strategy.

Sorry,

i'm only interested in theory, i love to over-intellectualise principles and concepts, and have no idea if this stuff actually works for real, that whole internal boxer thing sounds pretty cool though. Internal strategy, thats an interesting theory, do you have some books, videos, and/or websites where i can find out more information. Maybe you have a few experts on your website i could converse with.

Find a teacher

Who's US? I wish people would have the cajones to post with their real names.

US, are you a "true" internal stylist?

RoyalDragon, your posts simply smacks of self-promotion. It gets annoying.

Meynard,

Seems we share the same view on self promotion in this case, but on most occasions what difference does it make whether you use your name or not? i use my name but so what, it nots going to mean anymore or anyless to anybody. Bit like the lineage thing which i believe you disavow, whose opinion are you going to trust? You can come across as quite the little self promoter yourself, if your taken on face value.

As far as i'm concerned you are very limited on what you can 'safely' discuss on a board, even video clips can be misleading. As for fighting, i choose to leave it in the 'ring' and will refuse to discuss it in any way, except for some general talk on princples and strategy. 'Experienced martial artists' may have a responsibility to the kids/lambs to steer/nudge them in the 'right' direction, which tim does a very good job of, and so do the bobs'. But when it comes down it, i believe its up to people themselves to try to be masters of their own destiny, not rely on others.

Unfortunately it seems to me that people are coming on-line to self-promote, show off how 'skillful' they are, find some piece of 'secret' information (in any format) that will give them the edge etc. The 'truth' obviously is that there are many paths, but all are uphill invovle many hardships and any secrets to be found, are discovered through hard work, and cannot be 'given away' even if you wanted to.

Likewise none of these 'arguments' will ever be concluded to anyones satisifaction, even if we got some-one in to arbitrate. If he agrees with me, that not agreeable to you and vice-versa, and if he agrees with neither of us, both are of us are unhappy.

I hope that straightens things out, if not theres always a straitjacket.

love and kisses Chris

Meynard

What, does the fact that I post with my web address upset you?

Does the fact that when I don't now something and I point to those that I know do upset you?

Or is it the fact that I posted some of my experiance above, and it's really not much bother you?

I think you need to grow up a little and realize I'm offering help the way I know best.

Oh, just to make Mynard happy, I won't pst my address becaue he thinks I make $$ off my site

Chris,
If you keep making sense like that, you'll end up lonely.

Royal Dragon,
Good luck with your site.

Chris,

Good post... I like it when people post under their own names because to me it shows that they take responsibility for what they say. That's important.

RoyalDragon... maybe if you quit calling yourself a RoyalDragon I might take you seriously. Otherwise I just picture you wearing some kind of yellow kung fu uniform posing in front of a mirror being impressed with yourself. That just annoys the heck out of me, like when people dress up their dogs like humans...nothing personal, really. I just have this pet peeve about people giving themselves exalted names.

Royal Dragon,

You stated "Power is generated in the stomach, and radiates outwards towards the ground and also up to the shoulders where it is then transmited though the arms into the opponent for defense or attack. The power going down braces off the ground and adds to the power going up".

Tim can correct me here if I am wrong but I do not believe your statement here to be correct. As I understand it power begins from the ground up. I believe it is amplified as it moves up from the feet to the center and then directed outward from the center to the limbs.

Chris,

I too liked your post. If I am one of the bob's you reffered to thanks for the compliment.
If not I'll just have to keep trying!
Regards
Bob Shores

Actually, I should have said dantien, but still, power raidiates outward from the center.

The "ground up" method is more common to external styles.

Gian Lencioni

Great post Chris.

Give yourself a little pat on the behind...ooops I forgot...obviously you prefer "licking your own nuts."

I cannot make up my mind which post I prefer less, the one above, or your "I don't have to get my kicks by bullying/molesting little kids" post.

To reiterate, just a fantastic post Chris.

Chris and the lonely life.One can only hope.

love and kisses,

Now thats just plain nasty and vindictive. Its these sorts of unsolicitored and unsophisticated posts that give boards a bad name. This sort of behaviour is inexcusable, next time show a little more tact, no smily faces or catchy little closing remarks for you young man.

Oh yeah, i nearly forgot, same goes to you CoolHandLuke.

Gian,

I understood what you meant when you said "stomache" using "dantien" doesn't change the fact that to develop power we need a base to push off from for the initial impetous. Whether you are practicing Internal or External systems the generation of power begins in the feet. Practicing Internal does not negate the laws of physics, rather it brings the practitioner into greater harmony with those laws than the average external practitioner.

If you have not read Tim's book "Effortless Combat Throws" you should. In the Appendix of the book he states "In the Chinese martial classics,the correct method of moving the body in a unit and generating a wave of force is described as 'rooting in the feet, generate momentum with the legs, guide the momentum with the waist, allowing it to pass through the torso and transfer out the hands'".

Regards
Bob Shores

Bob,
In the interest of posting all views, please consider this excerpt from the Chen Village website: http://www.geocities.com/panyouli/faq.htm

"What is different about taijiquan movements and other martial arts or exercises?

All movement is initiated from the dantian, and your whole body literally moves together. If your dantian moves an inch, your shoulder will move and inch, your elbow will move an inch, and your hand will move an inch. There are no movements where one part of the body moves in isolation. I would say that a good athlete will move in a similar way some of the time, particularly when applying maximum power in a large movement. Taijiquan has analysed this mode of movement and applies it all of the time: for the smallest movement as well as for big, and for gentlest movement as well as for the violent ones. This way the body is always ready to produce power, and to change the direction of the power."

The conflicting assertions, e.g., the source of all power is the feet, or the source of all power is from the dantien, is a central paradigm debate, from what I have gleaned from the current literature.

I did not post this to question anyone's assertions, especially Tim's, rather to illustrate that differing positions do exist. I am sure you will weigh the reliability and credibility of each position in your own fashion.

Regards,
Walter

p.s. I am NOT a proponent of the qi paradigm over the biomechanical paradigm when explaining the physiological manifestations of certain training regimes. I believe, rather, that the qi paradigm is a culture affect that in many ways has outlived its usefulness.
Qi should, IMHO, never be a first line of explanation for training unless one was raised in a cultural environment (traditional asian) that creates that world view.

Walter,

Thanks for your post. I see this "moving from the center" as a reference to body unity rather than generating power itself although one leads to the other. If you are standing in Wu Ji for instance and you want to move you must transfer your weight to one foot in order to move the other. Even that transfer requires a subtle push from the opposite foot if you wish to maintain good posture during the transition.

Tim and I discussed this before. He always has a unique way of addressing this type of issue. "Imagine your floating in space or water. How could you generate power from your center? You can't, no base to push off from"!

I did not realize such wide spread division existed on this topic and I do appreciate your response, quite enlightening.

Regards
Bob Shores