Dragon Ba Gua Zhang

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Dragon Ba Gua Zhang
   By Hans-Peter Geiss on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 09:50 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,

I've heared here and there about "Dragon (Palm)Ba Gua Zhang ". I'm wondering if this is a style of it's own and who has created it. Or is it just a special form which every big Ba Gua family-style has? What is characteristic for this style? I've heared that the 8 palms are corresponding with 8 animals. I cannot find find really good and clear informations. Can you help?
My best
Hans-Peter


   By Tim on Monday, August 12, 2002 - 07:30 pm: Edit Post

Hans-Peter,
There is an offshoot of the Cheng Ting Hua style that is referred to as "Dragon" style Ba Gua Zhang. I think that the Ba Gua George Xu does he also calls Dragon style. I know he has tapes for sale, I'm not sure who sells them.


   By Richard_H on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 08:41 am: Edit Post

I've spoken to someone recently who practices Dragon style, and his bagua decended from Jiang Rongqiao. I think that Erle Montague also calls his bagua Dragon style. Theres a whole load of dragons out there.

Cheers

Rich


   By jeff k on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 11:36 am: Edit Post

I think several styles of bagua have a dragon form or dragon energy. Think of how a dragon might move. Like a snake only not just horizontally, curving back and forth, but vertical and horizontal at the same time. Cheng style definitely has dragon forms, especially some created by Sun Lu Tang. Doesn't Gao style have a swimming dragon set too? (Tim?).

I practice Yin style from Gong Bao Tien, and we consider it dragon bagua. In our style each palm relates to an "animal energy". Others relate them to an element or a gua from the bagua. Some have different animals. Our 8 main palms are Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Phoenix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey. We also have some rooster and tiger palms. The animals also relate to a gua or an element. Water falling, fire rising, metal cutting, earth, wood, etc, etc. IMHO, all styles have the same energy and relate them with different terms. Some styles say, "feet move like a snake, body like a dragon, eyes gaze like a monkey". Mythology makes for some good stories and transmit some spirit. Basically, it all comes down to Yin and Yang.


   By B.C. Hill Bey on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 10:45 pm: Edit Post

Greetings All,

While it's true that Cheng Ting Hua's Ba-Gua is known as the dragon or swimming Dragon, Fu Chen Sung's Dragon style (which is derived from cheng style)is the only style of Ba-Gua that I've heard actually called Dragon style or palm.
Many of the offshoots of Cheng style have a swimming dragon form, but Fu style uses the Tornado Palm as it's main feature and doesn't stay on the circle as most cheng forms do. The circle follows the practitioner and is truly complex.

Hope this helps

B.C. Hill Bey


   By Andy Gerrity (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim

I am studying Taiji with someone who has learnt a form of Bagua from Wng Shjin called "Coiling-Dragon Ba Gua Zhang". It only contains 8 palm changes and a double sabre weapon form. Can it be classed as a complete system of Ba Gua Zhang?


   By Tim on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit Post

Hi Andy,
It could be. Usually systems will include basics, conditioning exercises, formal two-person practices, technique training and sparring drills. All of these could come from a limited number of forms though.

I'd recon if there is enough in the training to teach you how to fight effectively with the strategy and techniques included in the style, it is complete.


   By smintman (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 08:49 pm: Edit Post

Can anyone give a description of the eight palms, just the hand postures, I can put the body alignments together myself. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


   By Rich on Friday, March 18, 2005 - 10:02 pm: Edit Post

If anyone is interested in Dragon Pa Kua they should contact Johnny Lee(Johnny Kwong Ming Lee) or Leng Tang.

Johnny Lee learned Dragon Pa Kua from the General that learned it from Fu Chen Song.

There is many articles available on the Pa Kua Journal about him and Dragon style.

Johnny Lee is a treasure.
I am biased though... he taught my teacher.


   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, March 19, 2005 - 07:20 am: Edit Post

General Sun Po Gung. I met him once.


   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 01:50 pm: Edit Post

wow,

all those dragon style baquazhang styles out there? i am sure they are all authentic but which one to chose?!!
a. are we looking for just the dragon name in the form?
b. are we looking for 'lineage'?
a. are we seriously looking to practice another style, e.g. tiger baguazhang, or,
b. are we looking for concepts and principle to incorporate that is practical and forget about the 'animal' assocition with famous personages.

just a thought!


   By Jamie (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:07 pm: Edit Post

The 8 Bagua palms:

(1) Yang Chang (Upward Palm)
(a) The inner palm faces upward; the fingers are apart.
(b) As above.

(2) Fu Chang (Downward Palm)
(a) The inner palm faces downward; the fingers are apart.
(b) As above.

(3) Shu Chang (Outward Palm)
(a) The inner palm faces outward; the fingers are apart.
(b) Index-finger, middle-finger, ring-finger and little finger are apart and outward. Thumb slants upward and forms a tiger mouth with indexfinger, wrist bends upward. If inner palm faces inward or leftward or rightward, it is called outward palm.

(4) Pao Chang (Holding Palm)
(a) The fingers are apart as if the hand is holding something.
(b) The fingers are apart; side of thumb upward and inner palm inward, the elbow forms a holding posture toward the body.

(5) P'i Chang (Cutting Palm)
(a) The fingers are apart; the thumb points upward at a slant; the fifth finger points down at a slant. The hand moves as if it is cutting something from above.
(b) The fingers are apart; side of thumb upward and little finger downward. The other fingers are forward, as if the palm is cutting something downward.

(6) Liao Chang (Pushing Palm)
(a) The fingers are apart; the inner palm faces inward. The hand moves as if the outer palm is pushing something upward and forward from below.
(b) The fingers are apart; side of thumb upward and inner palm inward, as if it pushes something forward from lower part.

(7) T'iao Chang (Tossing Palm)
(a) The fingers are apart and point upward.
(b) The fingers are apart to toss forward and upward, but the fingers point upward.

(8) Lo Shuan Chang (Spiraling Palm)
(a) The fingers are apart; the outer palm faces outward. The hand then moves spirally (upward) so that the inner palm faces outward.
(b) The fingers are apart, forward and upward. The arm spirals outward and lifts up with the side of the little finger toward the face, inner palm outward and the tip of fingers pointing upward.

From the books (a) Pa-Kua Chang for Self-Defense, by Lee Ying-arng and Yen Te-hwa, and (b) Pa Kua Chuan For Self-Defense, compiled and edited by Douglas H. Y. Hsieh.

It's easier to understand the explanations if you are able to view the photos.


   By troy (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post

I read that Dong Haichuan had taught 8 different animals and each had their own particular forms and movements. It was said that Yinfu was the only one who actually learned the complete Bagua style. Cheng Tinghua only the Dragon style because it was the best for wrestling and throwing.

Lion, Bear, Snake, Dragon, Phoenix, Hawk, Unicorn and Monkey were the 8 animals.


   By Tim on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 06:51 pm: Edit Post

"It was said that Yinfu was the only one who actually learned the complete Bagua style. Cheng Tinghua only the Dragon style because it was the best for wrestling and throwing."

This was said by later practitioners of Yin style Baguazhang.


According to researched history, all Dong Haichuan taught was three palm changes (short forms) and technical applications.


   By garrett (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 06:07 am: Edit Post

Tim
What would you say are the differences or differences of emphasis in the different bagua styles you have trained and been exposed to?

Garrett.


   By whirleybird (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 04:02 pm: Edit Post

What 3 palm changes?


   By DPG (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 04:03 pm: Edit Post

So when people talk about the 8 palm changes, that means, 5 of the palms were likely to be created by his students? THX TIM


DPG


   By Tim on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 06:57 pm: Edit Post

Garrett,
In general, the Cheng Tinghua systems contain more throwing techniques, and more "coiling" arm movements.

Whirleybird,
The Single Palm Change, the Double Palm Change and the Smooth Palm Change.

DPG,
Right, developed during Dong's later years.


   By Jay C Shrewsbury (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 02:51 pm: Edit Post

It is to my understanding that Dong taught the bagua to suit his student. Many, if not all, of his students were already advanced martial arts practitioners, as Dong was, before they were taught Bagua, so Dong "tailered" the techniques to best suit the individuals skills they already possesed, thus virtually making nearly all bagua styles "original". In my humble opinion this is what makes Bagua continually change, and is what the "gua's" are all about. "Change, that is the unchangeable" As stated this is just my humble opinion.


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