Archive through August 09, 2002

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Imperial Ba-Gua Chuan vs. Ba-Gua Zhang: Archive through August 09, 2002
   By Anvar on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 01:46 pm: Edit Post

Bob,

You are not implying that the actual momentum generation (muscle contraction) happens at the bottom of the feet, are you ;-)?

If it's not, why the momentum couldn't be generated in the "dantien" area as long as the frame transfers it? There should be enough muscles in this area.

Theoretically, a person is able to jump just by contracting neck muscles (vertical momentum). Could you imagine such a neck ;-)?


   By mark on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 02:03 pm: Edit Post

Bob,
With regards to whether power comes from the Dantien or feet, what if you are being bear-hugged with your feet off the ground? You should still be able to generate power. In this case you may use the other person as the base you need to push from. You always need a base for the power to be generated from but it doesn't need to be the feet.
Besides, who is worrying about generating power in space? :)


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 02:04 pm: Edit Post

Bob,
Perhaps a bit too technical a response, but here goes. (An example of using a discussion board to increase my own understanding.)

Is the ground path (to borrow a phrase that I believe encapsulates your refernce to the earth as a necessary source of power) the source of the power, or the catalyst of the power? Can the movement originate in the dan tien, or abdominal region, and then be expressed through the hands after bouncing off the ground through the ground path?

The reason I raise the issue is two-fold. First, it may help to refine my understanding of the bio-mechanics involved.

Second, when questioned as to whether one needed to be connected to the ground for internal strength to exist, a leading chen proponent answered no. He said that it is much like a car on a lift when thinking of a lack of the ground path. The car on the lift still has the power source contained within it, i.e. the engine, independent of the ground. But, the car needs to be in contact with the ground to express that power.

My point? Using the car analogy, in thinking that the ground is the source of power, one might spend a fair amount of time on the tires, rather than the engine. While both are important, I think you'd agree that the engine is the source of the power, not the tire.

Applying this reasoning to the dantien/groundpath argument, while the ground may be a necessary component of expressing the power, the dan tien might very well be the source of the power?

Why bother to figure all this out?

If one follows the ground path paradigm, one might train more of the legs, while if one focuses more on the dantien paradigm, one would probably work on moving from the dantien, through a physiological structure that, while not being mystical, may not quite be fully understood by western scientific thought yet.

In closing, I must add that just as a car has many components that make it run well, so too does a martial artist. Just as a car needs both good tires and a powerful engine, so too a martial artist needs strong legs as well as the ability to generate power from the dantien. Like I said, it leads to a question of what to emphasize in daily training.

Any theoretical musings such as these are limited in their scope, and are only worth the effort if they lead to a better understanding of the bio-mechanics that lie at the heart of internal strength, IMHO.

Regards,
Walter


   By Meynard on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

hey Walter,

What did you do to the old Walter T. Joyce? :-) You actually make sense.


   By Royal Dragon on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:30 pm: Edit Post

Walter,
WELL SAID!!!

I like the car analogy, I was going to use something similar. basically, the car does not generate power from the tire anymore than humans generate power from the feet.

Both the tire and the feet are tools of traction (Rooting) that enable the bracing nessay to control the power issued. With out that, you would see the legs and feet go down from the Dantien, and the shoulders hands and arms go up (picture a guy in a weightless enviroments just floating there).

Dantien= genrating power
Feet= rooting to controll power.

Gian

http://www.royaldragonusa.net


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:41 pm: Edit Post

Meynard,
Sometimes we have to discover what is wrong before we can find the path to what is right. I have had flaws in my reasoning in the past, although not as many as you may believe. ;->

Like I mentioned above, posting, and even more importantly reading, on the right discussion boards, can help one's theoretical basis, which, as you and Tim have so many times correctly maintained, is worthless unless it can stand the test of combat. (Assuming combat skills are your aim.)

Regards,
Walter


   By Tim on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:50 pm: Edit Post

Mark,
The discussion above was in referrence to generating power while standing. But you are right, if you are lifted off the ground, or lying on the ground, you can use whichever part of your body is connected to the ground (either directly or indirectly) for base.

It seems like there is confusion about the generation of power and what allows power to transfer. The quote from my book in the post above is a translation of a passage in the Classics of Taijiquan. Power is 'rooted' in the feet and 'generated' by the legs (including the hips). This is exactly the same as the analogy of the suspended car above. Potential power is generated by the engine but it cannot manifest until the wheels touch the ground (until a 'root' is established). Isn't everbody saying basically the same thing?


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 03:57 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
I just thought there was a subtle difference between between whats seems to now be a consensus and "I see this 'moving from the center' as a reference to body unity rather than generating power itself although one leads to the other."

Perhaps I am wrong.

While you're here, could you explore what you know about power generation as exemplified by chen taiji, in particular the core silk reeling exercises and their use of the dantien, or abdominal and lumbar regions, for generation of power?

Regards,
Walter


   By Crumbly on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 04:41 pm: Edit Post

For what it is worth, I was taught that I should think of any leg extension as originating at the hip rather than it being a "pushing off the ground". If you think of moving from the hip/center you tend to stay more rooted and connected than if you think "push off the ground".

I have a feeling that's the nuance that this thread is talking about. And I also think it is a nuance.


   By Chris Seaby on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 09:10 pm: Edit Post

Holy mackeral! imagine my surprise when i jump back on this thread, and rather than find more critiques of my great post, i find a discussion on internal power-generation. i hope all these metaphors are in code and somehow connected to my post, after all i'm the true centre of the known universe. When i've deciphered it all, i'll let you know... in code of course, don't want this stuff getting into the wrong hands.


   By Bob Shores on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 09:37 am: Edit Post

Anvar,

I’m not implying that the feet are the source of power, they are the root as far as muscle contraction goes it’s more from the legs and hips as I understand it. I think Dana Carvey has a neck like you were describing, then again I think you call that a turtle neck.:)

Mark ,

Tim already addressed the fact that we are talking about generating power when our feet are on the ground but thanks for your comments I don’t disagree with what you said at all.

Walter,

Good analogy. Although I drive an Explorer so tires are a BIG concern for me.

Chris,

The key to the code is in the spaces between the words and the lines.

Thanks to all for your comments

Regards
Bob Shores


   By Tim on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 01:10 pm: Edit Post

Walter,
Since my experience is with the Zhao Bao form, I can explain how I was taught to generate force from its perspective (which differs significantly from the Lao Jia).

All of the momentum in the Zhao Bao form (bearing in mind there are variations among the way the Zhao Bao forms are taught as well) is generated in waves. There is a closing of the body that is a kind of contraction into the center (lower abdomen) then the stored force is suddenly released and 'explodes' outward in all directions. The force is directed by the turning of the hips and a slight shift of the weight toward the intended target. The muscles of the torso (especially the shoulders) and legs are held as relaxed as possible, heavy and almost 'limp' and the wave of force ripples outward from the center through the extremities (you will see a rolling momentum pass through the shoulders which is somewhat more pronounced than the movements of the Lao Jia).

The Zhao Bao form also has a great number of weight dropping movements in which you twist and squat over one leg as the inside thigh of the other leg lays flat against the ground. The form is done at a fairly rapid pace and the arms literally whip outward as a result of the waves of momentum.


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 01:29 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
Thanks, as usual thoughtful, knowledgeable and concise reply. The section I cut and pasted below is especially helpful, thank you.

"The muscles of the torso (especially the shoulders) and legs are held as relaxed as possible, heavy and almost 'limp' and the wave of force ripples outward from the center through the extremities (you will see a rolling momentum pass through the shoulders which is somewhat more pronounced than the movements of the Lao Jia)."

Regards,
Walter

p.s. the low stances you described in the weight dropping method explains why so few people have what it takes to get through the training exercises to actually learn the form, as you have discussed in previous posts.


   By Dragonprawn on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 09:46 pm: Edit Post

I hope the name 'Dragonprawn' is not too exhalted.
I mean a prawn is basically just a shrimp, right?

Although it looks like those discussing this thread are coming to some kind of consensus, I'll add my two cents anyway. Power comes from both the dantien and the feet (heels).

Chi aside, you get a good deal of power pushing from the back heel & (maybe) twisting it. This is a key to things like uprooting the opponent.

If your feet are off the ground (or not rooted), say like if you are sitting, then the root is at your back which also works. If you are up against a wall you can root to it. Tai chi fighters winding up in this position, say against multiple attackers, might not really find themselves so bad off. I like the bear hug analogy - that guy may actually be doing you a favor if others are attacking your front!

On the other hand, I don't see how thinking about being in water or outerspace demonstrates anything. I usually avoid doing my tai chi in these places! Perhaps I misunderstood.

When you add chi to the equation then it is appropriate to think about the internal energy being generated in the dantien. It then travels down to the feet (hence the notion of bubbling well) & up again through the legs, hips, waist, back, arms, & hands.

So both are correct. The chi is in addition to what we get through proper alignment & mechanics. I agree with Walter (and many others) to not use chi as a starting point for a clear explanation. It often clouds the issue at hand (rather than waving hands like clouds). However, I disagree that in order to discuss it it has to be part of your culture. What if you generate it & use it?

I know you may say there are other (scientific?) ways of expressing it, but there really are not, at least not to my satisfaction. If I can walk it I'll talk it.

(Sorry - that last line sounded a little unshrimplike).


   By Chris Seaby on Wednesday, August 07, 2002 - 10:43 pm: Edit Post

'to hell with good intentions'... 'my love is bigger than your love' sing it, 'my love is bigger than your love' sing it...this thread is going to hell.

If you can, do it, if you can't, then keep on talking and talking... i'm sure the answer is in there somewhere.


   By wondering on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 03:50 am: Edit Post

Chris, I thought Tim's, Walter's, Crumbly's, Dragonprawn's, and others' comments were interesting. Different people have had different perspectives on this matter. Do you have an opinion or perspective?


   By Chris Seaby on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 06:51 am: Edit Post

Of course i do, but i don't believe adding my opinions is going to make it any more or less clearer, nor do i like to 'force' my opinions on those, who are not interested. Remember you asked!

As far as i'm concerned everyone's point is valid... to a point, and some maybe more than others (likely a matter of experience), but they are all legimate 'metaphors' for what is happened/ing to them.

People tend to think in different ways and are comfortable in expressing themselves in certain ways. Some do so scientifically e.g. (biomechanics), others philosophically etc. Ideas within one paradigm do not always translate well into the other, and this is where the mis-understandings often start. People can often be arguing the same point 'against' one another in a 'different' language and not realise it or maybe they aren't willing to admit it (to themselves).

One paradigm is not better than the other, no-one would argue for a minute that Chinese is a 'better' or 'more legitimate' method of describing events than English, different in some aspects yes, but not superior. But both have there limitations, like in being able to translate words into actual real physical body and step methods, in internal arts.

The words may be a guide to help you, but if taken too 'literally' or in the wrong 'context', they can also be a hindrance to your goal. I believe that for a large part of internal martial arts training 'intellectual' understanding has no place, ultimately you can do it, or you can't.

I should also point out here that i make a distinction between intellectual understanding and internal 'reflection', which i believe is useful, possibily essential.

The difference i see between the two is, that the former emphasises obtaining a definite answer, while the latter puts creedence on effort, making an attempt i.e. it is the process of searching out an answer that is important.

In that light, i tend take more notice of the questions that are asked, how they are asked, what language is used etc, as a clue to what 'level' of understanding some-one has reached, rather the answers themselves which seem to be much of a muchness to me.

As an illustration to this, i can use a taoist inspired story which i think sums up most of the discussions from my point of view.

A zoo-keeper has to feed seven monkeys and decides to feed three in the morning and four in the afternoon, which the monkeys vehmently oppose. So he says "ok, i'll feed you four in the morning and you three in the afternoon", to the monkeys great joy. The statements are the same, obviously, in that they produce the same result, but one produces joy, the other anger, go figure.

BTW i'm not suggesting in anyway that this discussion board is inhabited by monkeys, a few typing parrots maybe....


   By nolongerwondering on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 11:42 am: Edit Post

Thanks, Chris. I pretty much agree with all your points. Especially about the inherent slipperiness of words, and the necessity for serious investigative practice and "internal reflection." At the same I'm thankful for all thoughtful responses as "grist for the mill." Sometimes I think people ask open ended or simplistic questions precisely because words are so vague, and they want to open up an area of discussion. Thanks again.


   By Bob #2 on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 11:56 am: Edit Post

When my monk told me that story, I beat the hell out of him and gave up Taoism.

Bob #2


   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 12:28 pm: Edit Post

Was that before or after he fed you, and did you get fed in the morning or afternoon shift?
;->