Tim,

According to you, a Ba Gua fighter seeks to do one of two things: 1) Get behind the opponent, or 2) "Cross" the opponent. Both of these methods involve flanking. How does Ba Gua theory apply to standing grappling situations, where you are stuck inside the opponent's grip?

Steven

MFM,

Tim showed me that "crossing" can be done from the inside (if an opponent's arms get crossed & the top arm is held in place, then both arms are effectively in check while you still have your non-holding side to play with -- & if your checking hand is grasping the opponent's outer-most arm, then you may find it easy to use both of your hands, one on each arm, or both on one arm, along with some appropriate footwork to help throw him off balance/spin him around/throw him -- whatever).

If you are inside your opponent's arms in a grappling situation, there are several techniques that can get you to the outside or rear. The most basic techniques are the arm drag (pulling your opponent's arm across the front of your body and moving to his rear) and the duckunder (pushing up the opponent's elbow and then ducking under his armpit to come up at his rear). Another less often used technique is to 'chop' an opponent's arm down and then move around it to the rear. If none of the above are possible, you need to be able to throw from a face to face clinch. There are quite a number of these types of throws in Ba Gua Zhang as well.

Tim,

We did a couple of basic exercises, against wrist and lapel grab, that are supposed to teach the principles of 'keeping the frame' and moving around the opponent's force, get an angle, etc. These are not really 'passive' Chin Na, because you don't actually apply the joint lock. Is there a name for this type of training?

Steven

They are kinds of 'entry techniques.'

With Tim's passion to let his 'boys' roam free and his professed love for the rear naked strangle, if he started talking about entry techniques, i'd be starting to wonder myself.

Tim, if you were inside on an opponent, why would you make an attempt to get outside? There are plenty of vulnerbale areas to attack when inside on someone. I would think that a good rule for ANY style fighter would be to end the fight a.s.a.p. and bothering to get outside when you are inside is a bit of a waste.
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

The Way,
You said "There are plenty of vulnerable areas to attack when inside on someone" I agree, the problem is it goes both ways. When fighting on the inside (and sometimes you have no choice) your opponent has just as much access and opportunity to attack your vulnerable areas as you have to attack his.

If you are behind or outside your opponent's arms, the opposite does not hold true. You have access and opportunity to attack his vulnerable areas, he has no access to yours. In addition, you have superior positional advantage to take the opponent down without much struggle, as well as the option to escape if need be.

I agree that it is important to end a fight asap, but in order to end the fight you need to dominate the opponent. If your opponent is bigger and stronger, or has some practical skills himself, it will often be very difficult to do in a toe to toe exchange. This is why when two people fight, the bigger and stronger fighter usually wins. If you are physically and technically far superior to your opponent, you can most likely put him down however you like. We always assume the opponent is dangerous (stronger and technically sound), and that having superior positional advantage may be the only way we can win the encounter.

I understand much better. Thanks Tim.

Tim,

Many of the Ba Gua techniques seem to emphasize connecting with and controlling one of the opponent's arms. Does the style also contain techniques that involve striking the wrist or forearm of an opponent's attacking arm?

Thanks,
Steven

Not really. The incoming force of an opponent's attack is usually deflected (or avoided all together) as you enter to control or strike.

There are alot of techniques that involve striking at an opponent in order to "connect" with him, that usually involve making arm to arm contact.

Tim-

Is this just a feature of Gao style? I have seen practitioners use strikes to the elbows and shoulders, ankles and knees as a way to "break down" the door on the way in to finish the job (either through a percussive strike, lock and throw, or break). Have you ever seen or heard of this in a baguazhang style? Thanks.

-Steve

Like in Park style... hey Steve.

Hey Chris....yeah, like in Park's style. Just wondering if this is common to any other styles anyone may have seen.

-Steve

I've seen strikes to the limbs in Park's Ba Gua Zhang, it could be more common in the Yin Fu based systems, although I haven't seen it in other Yin styles.

In the Cheng Ting Hua based systems, I also haven't seen much striking to the limbs (perhaps because injuring an opponent's limb with a strike will cause an instinctive withdrawel of the limb and a defensive posture, making entry into a throw all the more difficult. Limb strikes make more sense if your strategy is to continue with a series of strikes).

um... i can somewhat folow this but not too well just from writing, can someone show me a site or video or something that explains these tactics especially about what man from missouri said...

thank u 4 ur time

I see that the thread here has gotten a little off-topic, but just to add my quick 2 cents. Yin style bagua of the xie peiqi > he jinbao lineage does use a fair number of limb striking techniques. Their emphasis is somewhat system dependent. They are emphasized a lot in the lion system, which is the most aggressive or yang system, where the intent is to break or damage the hand, wrist, elbow, forearm. In contrast, dragon system uses limb strikes more to move or trap the limbs to allow entry. Of course, keep in mind that these are my interpretations, subject to my limited experience.