I have heard stories of a master throwing an opponent who is throwing a punch by lightly brushing an arm angainst the arm being thrown. Maybe I didn't word it right. Anyway, I heard masters in Akido, Aki Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi, and Ba Gua could do. My first question, is this real? My second question, is it just a trick that anyone can do or is it something special that shows someone spend a lot of time and dedication studing there respected system. My third question, if this is an ability that comes with time and practices, can a person with normal ability and normal talent every hope to reach that level .. and if so, what would it take.

I have always love martial arts. And I always been awed by the stories of the old masters. And I always wanted to be just like the heroes of old. But I'm older now and I wondering how many of the old stories are real and how many are fake. And what are realistics goals for a person who studies martial arts just for the love of it (I don't think I will every get into a fight).

Tim, can you help me out.

All those stories are fake. The only real story is what you can bring yourself to do through hard intelligent training.

I use to do that in demonstrations at my old judo club. I'd thrown a big hay maker full force and my sensei would redirect my punch, thus sending me flying through the air. It works when it's choreographed, but I'm not too sure about using it in a fight. Maybe you could throw my ass around one of these days. I fall better than most black belts.

My teacher can do this to and also may put you on the floor without actually touching you. There is nothing mystical about either technique it just a redirection of balance. But as Abdullah says it probably wouldn't work in a fight. It's perhaps the sort of thing that you could pull off once(if you were really really confident...) but no-one would be likely to fall for again(excuse the pun!)

As for those stories, what a master of martial arts can do against an untrained opponent sometimes exagerates his/her abilities

I don't know about moving someone without touching them,"sounds like a tall tale to me".But the "appearance" of brushing someones arm and throwing them is what got me into the internal styles.Notice I said appearance.If you've ever busted your nuckles while turning a wrench,that's kind of "the four ounces moving a thousand pounds" idea.I've had teachers who were quite good at it and I'm getting not so shabby at it myself.Abdullah is right it is"kungfu",a skill that takes alot of work.But it's not magic just good physics and a lot of training.From appearance the person who is neutralizing and leading has trained remaining in a very relaxed but connected posture which makes it seem effortless and is very sensative to balance,his and his opponants both.All it takes is for the attacker to be slightly over extended.Some say it's done with mirrors a good teacher will tell you it's done with circles and triangles,"woo-o-o-hoo-hoo-oo"

I never thought it was "mystical". But with all those frauds around, I just wasn't sure if it was real "kungfu". And if it was real, I wondered if any average person could really hope to be good enought to do that in a real fight. I'm sure there are people who are very good and could do it after years of training. But I'm setting goals for myself, and the questions I ask is what is a realistic goal for a man of average talent. We all know what Shaq could do (and can't). But we don't all have the potential (not every one is seven feet something).

ANONYMOUS,i was just playing with you but seriously,I don't know where you are or what or with whom you are training but your right,there are alot of goofballs out there but there are alot of really good internal artists especially in the last decade here in the states.And they are much easier to find these days with the net.These are skills connected to internal arts and yes anyone can cultivate them if their teacher has these skills,so can they.Of course some people have more God given,natural talent than others but it is a skill like kicking,punching,etc..."Hope that helps".If you want to give me some info.,maybe I can suggest someone in your area.

Thanks ED H,

Yea, that helps a lot. I guess I got what I wanted so this gonna be my last anonymous post. I have a good teacher. I just didn't want to sound stupid asking him.

I would still like to hear from Tim. But ... I guess this will be the end of my Anonymous personal on this board.

Thanks to all who responded.

When I was 11 years old, I watched two of my friends get into a fight. Mike threw a huge haymaker at Steven (Steven's dad was an x-navy boxer, who had been teaching Steven to box since he was 5), Steven ducked the punch. The force of Mike's swing, and subsequent lack of an obstacle (ie, Steven's head) to check his momentum caused Mike to literally spin around 360 degrees and fall flat on his back, knocking the wind out of him. The fight was essentially over at that point.
So, it is possible to "throw" someone without even touching them.
Martial arts demonstrations are designed to entertain and impress an audience. Under carefully controlled conditions, and with cooperative partners, many spectacular techniques are acted out. Although these types of techniques (one man defeating multiple opponents, throwing people with little or no contact, disarming an armed attacker...) may not be impossible to execute "for real," the odds are greatly against them ever being successfully applied (even by "masters").
It may be helpful to think of real fights you have been involved in or have seen. Or, watch a No Holds Barred event. A similar pattern manifests itself almost without exception. Men strike each other, if no one gets hit with enough force to put them down (or out), there is almost always a clich and one or both fighters will go to the ground.
A smaller and lighter man can (with a great amount of practice) defeat a larger and stronger man (my definition of a martial art), it is highly unlikely even the highly trained and experienced smaller man will win with a flick of his fingers, under any realistic circumstances.
It is likely, however, that a much larger and stronger man will down a smaller and lighter man without much apparent effort (or training for that matter).
I have seen people sent flying with only a touch in DEMONSTRATIONS, and always with the teacher's own students. I have studied with a number of outstanding and well respected Internal teachers in China, for years, and I've seen them do many things that were absolutely impressive, but never mysterious.
I completely agree with the principle of using a much smaller force to influence (redirect or control) a much larger force (I base my techniques on it), but to be able to execute these types of techniques "for real," one still needs to be strong, sensitive, conditioned and must spar against determined non-cooperative opponent's often.
If your goal is to improve your physical condition, coordination, body use and health, training with a good teacher of the Internal styles can go a long way.
If you hope to apply the techniques of these arts in a real fighting situation, a whole different level of intensity of training is required ( I would only advise being cautious when a teacher promises great physical and martial prowess without a lot of hard training). Internal styles' training may be "soft" compared to other styles, but that doesn't mean it is easy. And no matter how hard you train, I wouldn't expect to be able to throw anyone in a real situation with a light touch.

Aikido demonstrations by top aikidoka, up to and including Ueshiba Morihei, frequently use(d) this kind of performance in marketing their art. A particular set of aikido techniques, kokyunage or
"breath throws," work on swift, precise timing, footwork and joining of momentum vectors to produce a throw that looks very much like the uke (person being thrown) has barely been touched. This only seems to work when the uke comes charging at full speed towards the defender, and do not seem to work if the attacker is making a slow, calculated approach to close in and grapple. Despite this, Morihiro Saito, one of traditional aikido's top dogs, regards kokyunage techniques as among the most "combat effective" in aikido's repertoire.

In Chinese martial arts, you have a whole community of believers in the Bay Area who swear by the "kong jing," or "empty force," projected by the much-promoted xingyiquan/yiquan teacher from Shanghai, Yu Peng Shi(his wife I believe is still teaching up there). It turns out that only his students really felt his kong jing. There are a couple of very interesting books by Jan Diepersloot that address this phenomenon, from the point of view of a dedicated student who eventually acknowledges that maybe there were limits to what his initially spellbinding teacher could show.

Shanghai appears to have been a center for kong jing demonstrations. Ma Yuehliang, the famous Wu Jianquan taijiquan teacher, demonstrated what appears to be projected qi in pushhands demonstrations in his latter years in Shanghai. One of his long-time students, Wen Zee, took a rather dim view of people who thought that Ma was showing kong jing. As a doctor of Western medicine, Wen Zee wrote skeptically of such matters. He's had an interesting duel about projected qi with Qigong Man, Ken Cohen, in the past couple of issues of Tai Chi magazine. Yet another student of Ma's, an American who pushed hands with Ma many times, swears that Ma could project people with little or no touch. Ma himself was silent on the subject.

Sorry guys if my last post was misleading. I didn't intend it to sound like my teacher throws everyone around without(or barely) touching them. Only that it was a demonstration technique. And that it may work given that any technique will work given the right set of cicumstances. But as Tim says, not something you should expect to work in real combat.

I'm a believer in Qi, but not in the energy type projected through the air! I'd be interested to know your views on Qi, Tim. And that of anyone else with experience/knowledge

Ah Qi,
I think there may be some kind of "life force" that animates the bodies of living things. I think that breathing exercises (qi gong) are definately good for your health (and if designed for martial arts, can seriously improve your power). I have never seen or felt any evidence of "mysterious energy" in my own practice. I have never seen or felt any credible evidence of such energies as demonstrated by others. (I've seen numerous demonstrations where a "master" pushes a student around without contact. Funny thing, when you ask them to do it to you there is invariably an excuse for why they won't).
The types of people who are succeptable to being moved by Qi as projected by a "master" are invariably the weak willed, eager to please follower types.
As for theories of qi inside the body ("meridians", "blockages", "orbits"...) you would need to contact a trained practitioner of Chinese medicine. These theories have nothing to do with martial arts.

Concerning Original Questions:
"...is this real?" Yes & no! Some is real, some is fake (& note that I'm not writing about "projecting qi," but rather I'm writing about doing a technique with ease). First the "no" part: some things are parlor tricks -- usually the partner is the one who actually does something while the main performer does little or nothing (such as Tim's example above of a student throwing himself without being touched; also the old "iron neck" spear-in-the-throat trick depends heavily upon the cooperation & steady hand of the spear holder as the point is pressed downward onto a hard -- bony -- spot at the base of the "master's" neck; it's all illusion to awe an audience -- & gain students by hook & crook).
The "yes" portion: when proper principle are applied in some situations you can throw or drop an opponent without any real effort on your part (read Tim's "Effortless Combat Throws," or take lessons in Xing Yi, or study with any instructor who doesn't struggle with an opponent & you will experience seemingly effortless moves bringing great results whenever you do something correctly).
"...is it just a trick that anyone can do or is it something special that shows someone spent a lot of time and dedication...?" Yes & no. The above answers also answer this question.
"...if this is an ability that comes with time and practices, can a person with normal ability and normal talent ever hope to reach that level...and if so, what would it take?" Yes. It would take some appropriate practice over time (how fast do you catch on to physical & mental applications/principles?). This is in reference to real martial arts -- parlor tricks can take no practice to a fair amount of practice (I bet you can throw yourself without much practice if any; learning to shoot a rifle bullet propelled by a low-powder-yield with accuracy into a "master's" mouthpiece takes a bit more practice -- & the "master" in-famous for doing this is now dead due to the inaccuracy of his partner; GET IT?). {:o)

Hi folks,
Great board you have yourselves here.
just thought I'd add a couple of things.
Tom,
I'm not sure if your aware of this but in one issue of Inside Kung Fu Ma Yu Liang gave an interveiw, and on the subject of moving an someone
without touching them is recorded as saying something to the effect of "this is possible, but
it depends on the person and also there skill level".

Whether that means it has to be a student or someone in awe(maybe a potental student hee hee)
or that one has to have the combination of good (off the body) ting jin and the willingness to let
that take effect, I'm not really sure. I don't really care much either.

However, I would say that doing chi gung/nei gung
exercises have helped me to percieve other peoples
Physical states/motions/intentions more clearly.
I'll try to explain. After a few years practicing
tai ji and standing, I began to teach. One day I noticed whilst working on someones stance that when I moved them into the correct alignment I began to feel my body becoming "full" or somehow
more energised. Experiences like this continued untill,about a year later , it started to occur
off the body. I realized that I was somehow picking up on the comfort poeple were feeling from
doing the correct postures or movments and that was the feeling of fullness and energy I was experiencing. I stil use this as a teaching tool to this day. Any old road my point is that if one can experience information from other poeple "from a distance", this can go a long way to enhancing self defence ability. So maybe there is some merit to being knocked over with kong jin. After all wasn't it Lao tzu who said "If we want to take something we first have to give somthing".

must go now but wuold love to chat again. I have many questions.

peace and connections

Tim,
Can you expand a bit on your thoughts of qi inside the body and martial arts, perhaps in the context of fa jing? Also, what are your thoughts on standing practices and the development of qi? Perhaps lingering just beneath these questions is a more direct approach. When you say "As for theories of qi inside the body 'meridians,' 'blockages,' 'orbits'... you would need to contact a trained practitioner of Chinese medicine. These theories have nothing to do with martial arts." are you saying that qi itself has nothing to do with internal martial arts? I ask as a student of ba gau for the last three years( I have trained in external arts for over 20 years, with influences from tai chi going back 10 years, but I qualify that by stating that my early experiences were form work only, my introduction to neija began 3 years ago). The issue of qi and training arose during my early standing training when I experienced certain phenomenon that were difficult for my teachers to explain without reference to qi blockages. In a larger context, the issue of qi in the body and as source of martial power, as well as a benefit to health has long intrigued me. I am a rationalist, more so as I grow older, but even the rational has its limits. In closing I would like to express my appreciation of a discussion board like this. Thank you for organizing such a forum, and for the thoughtful replies I have read here.
Walter

Hi Walter,
Some of your questions are difficult to answer because there is no concrete definition of what people mean when they use the word "qi." For example, in traditional Chinese medicine there are a couple dozen types of phenomena referred to as different types of 'qi.'

As far as the martial arts are concerned, I believe what my teachers (in China) taught concerning qi, the more you focus on cultivating some type of mysterious internal energy, the slower your progress in developing martial ability. Can the concept of qi be useful in teaching the IMA? I suppose it can be. Can a student become an expert in the IMA without ever hearing of qi? Definitely. Just like an athlete can get in better aerobic shape without understanding how the CV system works. Qi as a metaphor for certain sensations may be useful to guide students through training. But it is important to keep things in perspective. The vast majority of the best fighters in the world today have never heard of qi.
It's not that I don't believe there is some kind of 'life force' in the body. But when it comes to martial arts training, I feel it is infinitely more productive to work with variables one can understand (intent, anatomical alignment, breathing, technique...).

Power in the IMA is a result of correct physical training and mental control, not mysterious emissions of invisible energy. I often have new students hold a kicking shield and stand in a strong stance. I then knock them down from point blank range with very little body motion. This is an example of "duan Jing," or "short power." It is a technique that all my students learn to develop over time. I never mention the word qi. I've also had people tell me either they or their 'master' can push people over without touching them. My response is always the same. I'll give them the deed to my house if they can do it to me. I've even had a couple of people try. They were completely bewildered when it had absolutely no effect. I have the hardest time explaining it only works on the weak-minded who are desperate to believe, or fit in with the group. Such is the power of suggestion.

As far as your teachers explaining certain phenomenon as 'qi blockages,'my question would be were your teachers medical doctors or physical therapists? If they were, they most likely would have explained the same phenomena as pressure on scar tissue, misalignment of the skeletal structure or muscular/circulatory problems.

My advice (for those looking to develop real martial ability) would be to follow the advice of the old masters (who talked, albeit cryptically in many cases) about the mind controlling the body and the correct methods of body use, and leave the study of esoterica separate.

Tim,
Thank you for your prompt and thoughtful reply. I find your pragmatic approach to training encouraging and agree with what you said. Would you be open to discussing training methods through this forum or by email? I have been practicing the four palm changes(variations on 5-8) taught by Luo at a seminar this September in Massachusetts; and I also have been working on the first four explained and demonstrated on one of his videos; two sets of the heavenly stems; and basic hand and leg drills outlined by Luo, both at the 3 days of the seminar I attended and on the videos. I also train occassionally with someone that I used to live closer to (who taught me almost everything I know of neija, and also takes a pragmatic approach and whom I believe you know from this forum) but most of my practice is solo, because of scheduling and distance. Finally, if I might ask, what are your thoughts on Mike Sigman's methods? Thank you again, and happy holidays.

Walter,
I'm always open to discussing training methods on this board.

I don't know much about Mike Sigman's methods.

hi,

Walter mentioned discussing training methods etc. on board, so, if I may, I had a question to ask you, Tim, for a long time ( last several months )..

You mentioned elsewhere before ( primarily about Cheng Tinghua and its derivatives ) that the first three palms, danhuan, shuanghuan and shunshen, introduce, respectively, the element of horizontal rotation, rotation involving the vertical axis and the rotation through an oblique axis.

I'd like to hear what you think about the third element, rotating through the oblique axis. If I understand corretly, this necessitates leaning the upperbody backwards and twisting, a very uncomfortable position if held too long. Such postures are direct violation of what Xingyi and Taiji ( with some exceptions, maybe, e.g. in what E. Montaigue calls the Yang Luchan's early form, in that there's one posture utilizing the same principle ) teach us as being proper posture/alignement.
Is this tolerated in Bagua solely because the most uncomfortable phase is only momentary when done in a normal speed ?
Should one train holding such postures once in a while ( among all the other zhanzhuang postures ) ?
There's no doubt that this posture is not the most comfortable one for an average person, so the odds are that even after slow and gradual assimilation done over a long term, this motion will likely remain the slowest of the techniques in one's arsenal.
What would you say about its potential in practical applications ( I mean I know it's handy in a certain situation where you're really losing and the opponent doesn't know that you could move like this, but other than that ?? ) ?

hope my question made sense,

I enjoy your site.

Tim,
Thank you for your reply. Walter

Kohei,
The three original palm changes are done in continuous motion, they are not held as standing postures. The horizontal, vertical and oblique circles are descriptions of trajectories of momentum, from which all other circular movements are derived.

Why is arching back in violation of the principles of Tai Ji Quan and Xing Yi Quan? The alignments in the IMA are based on sets of principles, not specific postures. You can maintain the alignments of the IMA in a handstand if you understand the principles. Actually, it is absolutely vital to be able to maintain correct alignment when arching back and twisting. Once you start practicing non-cooperative contact free sparring, you will immediately find these types of movements occur often, offensively (as in back arching throws from the rear, which Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang both include), and defensively (as a reacion to strikes from the front and headlocks or pulls from the rear). A competent teacher should be able to explain and demonstrate the proper alignment when arching back (if done correctly, you will be as stable as when standing upright).

Tim,

"...the proper alignment when arching back (if done correctly, you will be as stable as when standing upright)."

Do you mean 'in motion', i.e. oblique rotation is as stable as horizontal rotation while standing upright ?

"The three original palm changes are done in continuous motion, they are not held as standing postures. The horizontal, vertical and oblique circles are descriptions of
trajectories of momentum, from which all other circular movements are derived."

I didn't mean to imply they are done as standing exercises, sorry for causing the confusion.

"You can
maintain the alignments of the IMA in a handstand if you understand the principles."

I suppose different positions have different degrees of margin of error before the body goes out of IMA alignement and how much/little mental and physical effort necessarry to maintain it. I find being in IMA alignement while upright easier probably because that's closest to my daily postures ??

"as in back arching
throws from the rear, which Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang both include"

Are those the ones the thrower intends to stay on his feet afterwards ?

One more question : where should the eyes be focusing during the oblique circle motion ?

Thanx for the prompt reply.
Kohei

Kohei,
You should go out & train w/Tim. You'll get your answers.

"Once you start practicing non-cooperative contact free sparring, you will immediately find these types of movements occur often, offensively (as in back arching throws from the rear, which Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang both include)"

What Tim stated there is the crux of a lot of confusion with people that just do forms and push hands and never mix it up. In a non-cooperative situation (practice or otherwise) you're moving through different alignments/postures. It's important to train the horizontal, vertical and oblique. The issue with most folks is that they are good at static alignment/postures, and maybe okay when they do their practice (form/push) but when it comes to having a little external pressure that is random and uncooperative, everything flies out the window. (Just my opinion)

You ask very good questions. Keep them up. But remember, questions on a forum like this are often times like asking someone what a banana tastes like. The best way to get your answer is to taste it, or get Tim out for a seminar or go train with him at his school.

good training,
Joe

Joe,
Thanx for the advice, I agree whole heartedly.

Tim,
I reread the theoretical introduction part of your book on effective throws and I think I understand my apparent misunderstanding. Head maintains the sense of floating for the reason of ( and nothing else ) maximally exploiting the body's potential by being like an elastic band gently pulled at both ends and slightly taut. In case of momentum in an oblique trajectory, head should again maintain a sense of slightly 'pushing out' ( my words, probably not very appropriate ) to make the body a relaxed and effective axis, even though the head may not, strictly speaking, remain vertical.
Just to clarify what I had in mind. There's one movement ( Shi Jidong's lineage ) where in left form ( counter clockwise turning the circle ) when the left foot ( inner foot ) is in the front, the right foot baibu out of the circle and becomes the pivot and the left foot travels clockwise 360' landing on the initial spot. The body naturaly turns also clockwise 360' while arching 'backwards'
, so the left arm first stretches left and up, then rises slightly ( unless very flexible ) while the head first tilts slightly to the left, then face up for an instant before turning to the right.
From the little I know about Sun style ( J. Crandall translation ), in the snake form, the left foot only travels about the half way, does koubu, then the right foot take care of the rest of the way by stepping out into mabu.
I think I find the movement I described above hard, both because of the arching and the fact there's the 360' spin ( both something I don't do often in my daily life ) not because those movements are inherently against IMA principle or anything..

Thanx for the replies and your site,
Kohei

Kohei,
I would say that theoretically oblique rotation should be as stable as horizontal rotation, but I agree it takes alot of practice. Although it is relatively easy to maintain stability when arching back without rotation. And I agree with you, it is easier to develop stability in postures and movements that we use more commonly (standing upright and bending forward).

Back arching throws in Ba Gua and Tai Ji are meant to leave the thrower on his feet. They are not full back arches to bridges like Greco throws.

When doing back arching and oblique movements, the eyes should look slightly ahead of the motion of the head (for example, if you were going to arch straight back, you would look 'up' toward your forehead).

Some of the arching and spinning movements in some of the Ba Gua styles are designed to be difficult. The theory is that if you have the flexibility and balance to execute extreme movements correctly, you have a reserve of flexibility and power in most of the movements you will actually make.

"When doing back arching and oblique movements, the eyes should look slightly ahead of the motion of the head"

I tried it. Very true, it helps me a lot, thanx !

I appreciate your comments very much as I find them without exception eye-opening and to the point.
If you don't mind, I have another question ( please feel free to move it if it belongs elsewhere better than in this thread ).
Somewhere else you mentioned that in terms of 'energy' Xingyi Wuxing's heng is an inward expansion as opposed to pao's outward expansion. I think I understand pao being outward, but am less certain exactly in what sense heng is inward ( I know it 'wrings' in somehow, but .. ). Could you elaborate on this verbally if possible, esp. in comparison to pao ?
I know that the online exchange of information goes only so far, but my being in Eastern Canada, I cannot attend your seminars anytime soon..

Thank you for your replies,
Kohei

Think about the movement of Heng quan as the bottom arm moves forward from under the extended arm. The bottom fist is twisting palm up as the other fist is twisting palm down. The sum of the energy of the two arms is an 'inward' (toward your centerline) rotation (the radial side of the extended arm rotates down and in while the ulna side of the extending arm rotates upward and in). This produces a kind of 'squeezing' energy which can be applied as filing power either inward or outward.

in that sense, I see ...
Thanx !