I have a question, and it deals with the subject name here (obviously). Anyway, I was wondering if there really are 2 styles of the Yang Taiji? I've picked up information here and there and I've become quite confused. Some people say that there are 2 different versions of Yang style Taijiquan, the Yang Luchan style (Old Yang?), created by the founder of Yang style Taijiquan, and the Yang Cheng-fu style (the one practiced by most people nowadays, or so they claim), created by his grandson.
Can any of you guys clarify this, perhaps? I heard that Old Yang style (Yang Luchan) uses more visible fa-jing and that the Yang Cheng-fu style is more for old people. Tim, I've taken a look around your website and noticed that it said that you learned the Old Yang style...perhaps you could help me out? Thank you for your time in reading this guys.

David,
Apparently, what Yang Lu Chan taught was very similar to the boxing he originally learned from the Chens. The greatest changes were made in the second and third generations by Yang's sons and grandson. During the second generation, Yang's sons develped variations on the original forms often categorized as the "Small, Medium and Large Frames." Other popular styles developed from these. For example, the Wu Jian Quan style developed from the Small Frame, while the most popular style of Yang Tai Ji Quan practiced today, the one modified by Yang Lu Chan's grandson, Yang Chen Fu, evolved form the Large Frame. Although most people are only familiar with the so-called "Long Form," which is practiced slowly, there is also a "Fast Form," which retains the 'Fa Jing' practices. There are also many supplementary exercises which train the ability to issue force. The Yang form I learned came from the second generation leneage "Medium Frame." It follows the same sequence as Yang Chen Fu's form, although the movements are in smaller cirlces, and the advanced step is used much more often.

Tim, Would yourself (or anyone else) be so kind as to list/describe some of the supplementary exercises. It sounds very interesting.

Tim,
You also know Sun style. And I heard that Sun style derive from Wu style. So is Sun style small frame tai chi???

The Fa Jing exercises I learned in the Yang style looked a little like basic Xing Yi Quan practice. We did them in place, and then walking forward with an advance step, or angular step. The arm movements were taken from the basic techniques included in the forms. There are also quite a number of two person fa jing exercises.The underlying purpose of the exercises is to teach the student how to generate whole body power and cause it to flow through his body and out his hands in a wave or pulse.
Sun style did not derive from the Wu Jian Quan style of Tai Ji Quan. It derived from the Wu Yu Xiang style (The surname "Wu" is not the same).
Wu Yu Xiang style Tai Ji Quan is derived from the original Yang form as taught by Yang Lu Chan, Yang style's founder, and the Small Frame or Zhao Bao form of Chen Tai Ji Quan. The Sun style is done in a high stance with active steps, and also incorporates the techniques and methods of Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang.

Tim:

If Sun style taijiquan "incorporates the techniques and methods of Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang," would it be advisable to study Xing Yi and Ba Gua before taking up Sun taijiquan? Or would it at least be helpful to study basics of Xing Yi like the 5 Elements, or basics of Ba Gua like the Single Palm Change, supplementary to studying Sun Style?

One last question: Sun Lu Tang supposedly studied Wu Yu Xiang style Tai Ji Quan from Hao Weizhen for about 3 months. Granted that Hao was considered a high-level taijiquan master, and that Sun had studied and mastered Xing Yi and Ba Gua: does the form Sun created from the three arts truly reflect insight/mastery of Tai Ji Quan? You have been able to study these arts with true masters of the forms, including from Sun's daughter. I'd really value any opinions you have.

I don't believe it is necessary to study either Xing Yi Quan or Ba Gua Zhang before studying the Sun style of Tai Ji Quan. On the other hand, a background in these styles would only be an asset. Sun Tai Ji Quan is really complete in and of itself (as a style of Tai Ji Quan). Actually, if one were interested in studying all three orthodox Internal syles, I would recommend practicing Sun Tai Ji Quan first, and then Ba Gua Zhang and Xing Yi Quan. The Tai Ji is easier to learn, and provides a solid foundation for the other styles (Sun Lu Tang himself believed that of the three styles, Tai Ji Quan, in general, was the quickest and simplest to learn and apply).
Based upon my own exterience, I would have to say that Sun's Tai Ji Quan is on par with any other style of Tai Ji Quan (and I believe proficiency in technical application is considerably quicker than many of the other styles.) I've been trying to get the point across that martial "styles" are not based on collections of movements and techniques, but rather on sets of principles. Since Sun was truly a master of the principles of Tai Ji Quan before he ever practiced the art, it was relatively easy for him to learn and understand the way the principles were applied in Wu style Tai Ji Quan.

Thanks for your reply, Tim. Sun style gets put down by nonpractitioners, in part because they don't believe Sun Lu Tang could have learned much in depth about taijiquan from three months study with Hao Weizhen. Coming from someone who in fact has trained in all three arts, your opinion is solidly grounded.

Read it and weep . . .

http://www.whitewillowtaichi.com/

Sysop,
Why do you let clowns like this advertise here when he is obviously trying to insult Tim with his childish post? I checked out this site and I did weep, over poor grammar and spelling. This compounded by the metaphysical bull the man is spouting. What he has Tim does not want lest he waste his time on super spiritual crap!

I don't read a lot of what people discuss on this board. I just spot check and read discussions that interest me. Tim and I pretty much have a policy of no censoring unless it is threatening or violates the rules of the board. I definitely do not allow advertisement posted directly on the board itself. I'll see what Tim has to say.

I checked out that link too- I had the impression
that 'ihaveitandyoudont' was saying "read it and weep because of how stupid that site makes internal Tai Ji and Bagua sound"

That's no advertisement.

That's correct, Sum Guye. Sorry--the URL was not meant as an advertisment to promote the site, more as a sardonic reminder of what's out there. Feel free to delete it--no offense intended.

Forgive my reaction, between your name and your post I took it wrong.

Sardonic. Sardonic. Sardoic.
DAMN THAT WORD.

Howdy Tim?
My PC is kaput (sp?)! I'm using a public library's PC at this moment [a quick stop on the way to the store to buy some stuff for another relapse of the flu -- Kevin & I were (separately) caught out in the rain about a day after (jointly) visiting with a sick friend & now we're both sick ourselves].
I'm still practicing Sun Style (as well as Xing-Yi Pi Form) & I like it; can't wait to get more of the form (looks like I'll be back sometime this month after the 9th & once the weather has been dry awhile). I'll call by phone to schedule a lesson (currently don't know if I'll be able to salvage my PC or if I'll have to save up for a better one).

Sun Lutang was far above his peers when compared to literacy and intellectual development. Though he was stated to suffer from depression-education, exposure and interests help to arrest any mental instability he was stated to have had.
He was astute, people saw diligence and that is why he was taught. I believe, as Tim stated, that concept and principle of an art is the actual learning goal as opposed to actual repetition of a thing without noting differences or similarities, or just following blindly what a master says.

Sun also spent a short time learning baquazhang but again this does not mean he didn't gather concept or rationale of movement(s).
As we know he studied with one of the better exponents of xing-yi (foundation) and thus was in a position to analyze others arts from this perspecyive

Tim, you posted earlier that Zhao Bao Taji was equivalent to Chen Small Frame Taiji. It is my understanding that Zhao Bao Taiji evolved from Chen Small Frame but over the intervening years the Taiji taught in Zhao Bao Village is now quite different than the orthodox Chen Small Frame still taught in Chen Village by Chen Li Ching and Chen Boxiang. I also understand that the Zhao Bao people now claim that their Taiji predates and was developed independently of Chen Village Taiji.

Hi Ron,
There is a considerable discrepency in form among various practitioners of the Zhao Bao style itself. And believe it or not, everyone says theirs is the "traditional" form. I've never heard the Zhao Bao being independent or older than Chen village Tai Ji theory. My teacher's story of the creation and history of the Zhao Bao style is pretty much the standard; Chen Ching Ping left the Chen village to marry into a family in Zhao Bao. While there, he modified the Chen style he had grown up practicing and "created" the Small Frame, or Zhao Bao Jia. My teacher considered the Zhao Bao system to be a variation of the original Chen system, not something separate from it.

Hi Tim,
Earlier you mentioned that there were only two Yang styles. Another Yang style that is gaining ground in the states and in Europe is Yang Jia Michuan.
You may want to check it out at:
www.AYMTA.org