Tailbone Tuck in Taiji, Bagua, Taiwan, Mainland?

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Tailbone Tuck in Taiji, Bagua, Taiwan, Mainland?

   By Shane on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 11:48 am: Edit Post

If you sit on a stool... a hard stool with no back, it'll be uncomfortable to tuck.

   By Jake Burroughs on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:29 am: Edit Post

I was thinking of this thread while sitting on our bar stools yesterday. It is a problem in communication... "tucking" the tail bone on a backless chair makes it more comfortable on their SITS (great illustration here: http://www.nidus-corp.com/bass.html) bones, but eventually will hurt your low back because of the pressure and posture (lack thereof). When sitting up properly the SITS bones get a little sore because most people are not used to sitting on them properly and they are tender.


   By Andrew Read Wall on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 11:15 pm: Edit Post

I guess, what I am trying to determine is, are we miscommunicating because of a difference in our understanding of the terms we are using, or do we really disagree at all?

how would you describe the "natural" allignment in respect to "neutral" position of the hips?

All my research into proper postural allignment seems to say that the "neutral" position is the "natural" position. In which case if they tuck or tilt beyond this then they lock out the spine and that is very bad. From that locked out position they may need to tuck/tilt a little to return to "natural/neutral".

   By Jake Burroughs on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 10:44 am: Edit Post

Andrew without getting together and showing you, we might be stuck. It has been my experience that the overwhelming majority of teachers in the Chinese martial arts have no clue what they are doing nor why. I continuously had instruction to "tuck" my tailbone under me (again... think of a dog cowering). This is wrong and has no stability.

Neutral is where your hips are not locked into any position... as if floating in a bowl.

   By Tim on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 05:35 pm: Edit Post

In general, when Western sports trainers talk about a "neutral" spinal alignment, it is the same as what I would call "natural" alignment (no hyperextension of the lower back or forced tucking of the pelvis).

What Jake is referring to is unfortunately common with many modern TCMA teachers who interpret "neutral" or "natural" alignment as an over-exaggerated and forceful curling under of the pelvis, in an attempt to "straighten" the natural curves in the spine.

   By Andrew Read Wall on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 09:12 pm: Edit Post

Cool, thanks for the commentary folks.

It's always nice to see other experts validate your thoughts.

   By Timothy on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 10:52 pm: Edit Post

I asked a prominent Chinese bone setter(he isn't Chinese but his bone setting/joint manipulations are from Chinese medicine). He also has been studying hsing I for years.

He stated this: ""the reason you tuck your tailbone is that when you punch/push someone force escapes down through your low back. If you bring your tailbone down, straightening the lumbar curve all the way, force will not dissipate and will project into the opponent."

He ended with this: "You wouldn't tuck under like that when jumping out of a plane because you'd fuk your lumbar spine up."

The last statement is very telling. I don't agree with him. He is amazing at bone setting but I'm not sure how amazing his application of hsing I is. The best martial artists I have ever met never talk about alignment. They teach techniques and expect you to find a way to power the technique with your own body mechanics. I remember we were having a debate about this with a student that studies tai ji as well. We asked my teacher about spine alignment an he basically said, "As long as you hit the other guy hard enough to hurt him that's all you need to know". People didn't like his answer but it's the right answer.

Internal people talk forever about this and do their tai ji form or their hsing I forms. Forms are great...but it's not application. It's not sparring.

   By Jake Burroughs on Wednesday, January 25, 2012 - 10:41 am: Edit Post

He is full of it. Look at Dempsey.... arguably the hardest hitting boxer of all time. Tuck his tailbone? NOPE!

"The best" martial artist never speak of alignment simply because they are ignorant at best about body mechanics, anatomy, and functional movement.

   By Timothy on Thursday, January 26, 2012 - 02:18 pm: Edit Post

Actually one of them has a bachors in biology and knows all about anatomy. Anatomy is learned through rote memorization(I hated learning about it). The just focused more on learning skills instead of standing around playing doaist priests and feeling what their bodies were doing like many people who study internal martial arts.

   By Jake Burroughs on Friday, January 27, 2012 - 10:15 am: Edit Post

Anatomy and an understanding of functional anatomy are two totally different things.

   By Andrew Read Wall on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 11:41 pm: Edit Post

"Anatomy and an understanding of functional anatomy are two totally different things."

so true.

   By robert on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 09:00 pm: Edit Post

I think people get confused about the tailbone tucking. Im not sure how much is lost in translation, but i always try to keep my "hips" in the movement, and hips include the tailbone, but its not like i am forcing anything. Its a natural posture..

   By Andrew Read Wall on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 12:01 am: Edit Post

I think, and I know very little, that people like to live in the realm of extremes. You say "tuck your tailbone" they tuck it ALL the way, you meant just a little because they were tilted too far the other way. It's been my experience that people like to rest in an anterior tilted posture that isn't natural and more often than not, I find myself saying to my students tuck that tailbone... just a little, so that it will be in neutral which is what God intended.

I can sooo easily see people not specifying clearly and it becoming misunderstood and passed on.

I think this is part of what is intended by the statement "wuji" or no extremes. So much of good posture is about avoiding extremes and finding that nice balanced range that the body was intended to function within. You avoid extremes, cause mostly they are bad. You start here, then your posture is good, from there you can function with power.

but like I said, I know very little.



   By robert on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 03:22 am: Edit Post

You have students?

   By Andrew Read Wall on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 09:20 pm: Edit Post

indeed, although not very many active ones right now. I am not actively teaching because I am pursuing my DPT.

   By robert on Friday, February 10, 2012 - 02:58 am: Edit Post

I hope thats not a drug

   By Jake Burroughs on Friday, February 10, 2012 - 10:19 am: Edit Post

Thats DDT silly!

   By Andrew Read Wall on Friday, February 10, 2012 - 03:36 pm: Edit Post

Doctor of Physical Therapy

you can check my website out at www.kingdomwarrior.org

   By Jake Burroughs on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 09:30 am: Edit Post

One can get a doctorate in PT??

   By Timothy on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 11:58 am: Edit Post

You can only get a doctorate in PT now. Everyone who enters is in the same 6 year program. It's a waste of time to have a doctorate in PT though. They did it so schools could make more money. I have a Masters in acupuncture. That's a waste as well. A years training, maybe two is enough for Acuouncture. Learning Chinese herbs is a totally different story.

   By Jake Burroughs on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:48 pm: Edit Post

6 year program?!?!? Dude... a guy I roll with just went through a 2 year program and is doing it fulltime, so perhaps your info is a bit skewed.

   By Andrew Read Wall on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 12:19 am: Edit Post

I am sure different schools have different timelines.

If you do a straight off the street program, they average 3 years.

If you already have a bach. deg you can do a 3 year program.

most 2 year programs are PTA programs.

   By Andrew Read Wall on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 12:19 am: Edit Post

sorry, bad editing on my part, the straight of the street programs are 6 years, if you already have a degree its 3.

   By robert on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:31 pm: Edit Post

Good luck with Your DMT

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