Stephen,

Well put. The fact that one can move from a "C" to a straighter posture may account for why you can probably find old pictures of any Masters & sometimes they look tucked & sometimes they do not.

It also brings to mind how when we yield and tuck we are basically spring-loaded for the counter attack.

Tim,

Yes lift is the opposite of rounding, but last time I looked the chest was located opposite the back. In other words when YCF said lift the back, this was a concept in need of clarification. the way to lift the back was to concave the chest.

I will add that YCF cautioned to do so only a little. I think that bending too much high up in the back is inhibitory. For one thing it tightens the abdomen to prevent proper breathing. After a while I think it would cause back pain. This is why the "C" analogy may be misleading. The main thing is tucking in low.

Are you telling me that in addition to not believing in tucking you do not round the back? By the way the classics do say straighted the tailbone as you point out. If they wanted it held the way it normally sits why would they even mention it? The remainder of the principles are, after all, things you must train to do.

As I alluded to in my previous post deep breathing, while seeming to occur naturally when one is healing from illness, & maybe in newborns, seems to require some training. Head suspended too. And who keeps their shoulders & elbows down without training? Tuck in with head suspended & you stretch the spine & get that energy flowing.

Obviously this is a big point of contention. it interests me because you guys more or less attack not only the very nature of my method, but also what I teach others to do. So it is no small issue to me. But how many Shen Wu guys are really training in TCC anyway? There seems to be so much else you do besides.

Bob II,

Be nice & I'll share that duck with you!

Calm down. I said duck, not tuck.

Dragonprawn,

You ask Tim, "Are you telling me...?" Damn right! Tim just told you the exact meanings of the words in the classics you referred to -- what they mean & what they don't mean... & quite clearly too. Tim reads, writes, & speaks Chinese very well; and his English isn't too shabby either.

Apparently you just don't want to accept the truth of this matter.

Let's examine closely what Tim has written:

'...nowhere in the Classics of Taijiquan is it written that practitioners should "round the upper back and tuck in."' That's "NOWHERE" -- not one mention, anywhere.

'I'm assuming you are referring to "han xiung ba bei."' Since you didn't challenge this assumption, I'm led to believe that it is a correct assumption; so the following applies:

'..."ba" means "to lift upward," (in this case the upper back). Lifting is the opposite of "rounding" or slumping.' So, naturally, if the way you lift causes a slumping or any roundness, then you are obviously lifting in a way contrary to how the writer of this classic intended for the reader.

Granted that you probably didn't know this earlier; but now you do know this; so if you continue doing to the contrary (as you say you have been doing & instructing others to do) then it's a conscious choice you make of putting your pride/ego/bad-habit before the truth.

So screw any further arguement/rationalization you have on this matter -- because there's nothing left for you to reasonably argue. Truth has been brought to light; put your ego aside & accept it, or shut up (stop lying to yourself & to your students that you're practicing & teaching Taijiquan in accordance with the classics).

An intelligent individual will admit a mistake when faced with truth that is contrary to his or her mindset, & then he or she will move on with a changed mind -- in accordance with the truth. Please, use your intelligence on this matter.

I'd just like to add Wing Chun requires it's practictioners to round the back and push the pelvis forward/tuck. I believe that it is their way of generating power. I also under the impression that generating power that way is different from Tai Chi and Tai Chi generates power very similarly if not in the same way as Xing Yi and Ba gua. Perhaps somewhere along the line, someone confused Tai Chi with Wing Chun. Or perhaps a old Tai Chi master developed a bad back...

How another non-shenwu guy does it:
A lot of people are taught to "tuck" the tailbone because they stick out their butts too much(like myself). In my case, I tuck enough to make a straight back but not so much that my back is curving.

"If they wanted it held the way it normally sits why would they even mention it?"
Because the way it sits is going to be different for different people. Not everyone holds their back the same when they're just wandering around going about their lives.

nahcybrad,

Wing Chun does not teach it's practitioners to "round the back". Some teachers of Wing Chun may teach this, however, Wing Chun does not teach this. I teach Wing Chun, and I don't teach what you said at at all. I've seen many Wing Chun practitioners lean backward and round the upper back. I believe they do this to imitate Yip Man in his declining years. I know that sounds silly, but people in general are silly. Whatever the case, many practitioners do what you state, that does not make it right or the teaching of all Wing Chun practioners. We train to stand upright and the tail does tuck slightly to release pressure on the lower back as most people tend to roll the tail backward as they sit in their stance. This position is more centered then pushed forward or pulled back, more or less floating between the extremes.

Regards
Bob Shores

Interesting about Wing Chun, because I've seen the rounded back-and-tuck in Southern Mantis and Bak Mei as well. In descriptions of Hsing-Yi, it seems the same. But always there is the important admonition of not overdoing it. It should be a relaxed posture rather than one held by excessive tension. Never saw such a posture in any TCC practitioners, however.

Dragonprawn,

I'm not attacking your method (whatever works for you is fine with me), I'm just clarifying what the TCC classics actually say. How people interpret the information is up to them.

Yang Chen Fu was a fat f*&* that died at the age of 53. what a physical speciman!

Do exactly what he did and you can be fat and die of a coronary at a reasonably young age too.

Oh yeah, some old guy tells you to round your back and squeeze your butt check until your eyes pop out, do that too. But don't use proper body mechanics - think !!!...

BTW, I think I'll tell my golf instructor to hunch his friggin' back and tuck his a$$ up. It will probably enhance his swing. If an old Scotsman told him that, it would be the truth !!!

There's a lot of people that just teach what was taught to them. This is the plain truth. Everyone holds this a "the truth." You got to remember kids, it's all about relaxing and body mechanics. It's as simple as that.

Dragoober,

"the way to lift the back was to concave the chest" are you sure you're a scientist?

Right about now I'm glad I wandered into Tim's class and not Dragonprawns!

Shane, I think Dragonprawn is refering to pulling the shoulders down and forward to round out the upper back. This will cause the chest to concave. This is often done by "Turtle-Back" practitioners. My old sifu's own brother warned us about training in our style (which develops this posture) as it would cause serious health problems for us down the road. After a year of our hard chi'kung exercises, I noticed my shoulders narrowing and starting to point forward. I also started feeling more pressure in my chest if I slumped or bent over. Of course, it could be my beer-er, chi belly.

Also, I would like to point out that this sudden, powerful downward and forward movement of the sides of one's torso (referred to as "rib power" by some) has apparently had some bad consequences for at least one of us, who has developed an unusual curvature of his spine between his scapulae.

hmmmm. I know what dragonprawn is refering to... and I find it comical.

David,

See what you started? The last time I got into a debate on this site over the obviously contentious point of rounding/tucking it was also I believe someone named David who started the thread.

Any how I think we have strayed a bit from your original question. Almost, it would seem to the point of taking it to the Flame Room.

I must admit I enjoy debating these things from time to time. However, I do think that the "faceless arguement" can be less good-natured than a face-to-face get together over beers. Maybe not.

At least if I met some of you guys in person I could demonstrate what I am talking about so as to at least eliminate some of the confusion. Some day perhaps. But let me be clear - I do not wish to meet Bob #2 under any circumstances. Ever.

In the meantime I'll settle for this interface & make a further attempt at clarification.

YCF did die young. He had a lot of bad habits. But he said those things in his leaner, meaner years. Also I turn my heal when I strike. He did when younger, but not when older. He said he had found a better way. I think he just got too plump. So, you see I do not follow his advice blindly. Most people, however do not turn their back foot. I'll go with what his grandfather did anyway, given the choice.

I round my upper back a little. Again, just a little. IMHO that is what connects the arms to the torso. I tuck a good deal. But after many years of training this is - surprise - comfortable & relaxed. IMHO tucking connects the torso to the legs.

On the subject of science. While working as some of you know with the criminally insane for 18 years I also went to school & obtained PhD in biopsychology. Much of my training is in evolutionary biology & animal behavior.

Before you guys talk about natural & unnatural curves you might want to look into neoteny & how it may apply to human evolution & why our spines may not be so well suited to walking upright. There's some science for ya. Now go do your homework!

Dragon,

"IMHO"
"IMHO"
"our spines may not be so well suited to walking upright"

There isn't even any common ground for a rational dialog.

You've mis-interepreted the classics - probably based on someone else's mis-translation. (I actually feel bad for you on that one to be honest - that just sucks) You believe that the human spine may not even be suited to walking upright based on a speculative variation on evolutionary theory and use that to support your rounding and tucking... Despite the fact that whether or not we evolved by maintaining the juvenile aspects of our ancestors or not, we are what we are today and tucking and rounding now are not going to reverse that evolutionary process and make you a better functioning fighter.

The many "IMHO" references in your email prove that your tucking is about as far from science as one can get. Opinion about body structure doesn't qualify. Your personal credentials, while admirable, do not qualify you as an expert on optimum human funtioning.

DragonPrawn (it's funny to me that a person who posts a pseudonym complains about 'faceless debates'),

I'm all for meeting in person so you can demonstrate what you're talking about- and I'll in turn demonstrate how easily a rounded, concave chested tailbone tucker can be knocked over- just to eliminate some confusion.

I hope, with your Phd in biopsychology you can explain how;
even though I don't round my back in the slightest nor tuck at all- my arms are connected to my torso and, believe it or not, my legs are also connected to my torso.

You say you never want to meet Bob #2.... to me, you both sound like complete nuts. You'd probably get along fabulously.

Go over to Kungfuonline... the place is packed with folks who, like you, are convinced butt tucking and rounding your spine will help you reach your evulutionary peak.

Shane

Well, even though I'm being ignored in this debate, at least this time nobody is telling me I'm crazy.

Kenneth,

YOUR CRAZY!

Now your back in the game

(sigh)

DragonPrawn,

when you say you've "worked with the criminally insane for 18 years" do you mean as a partner?

And are you know teaching a crop of criminally inane?

I hope you don't ever meet me, too.
Roberto Numero Dos.