Hi Tim,

there are several translations of An (Push). Some translate it simply as Push and some as Push Down.

Can you please explain, what the difference is?

I just know the version, where i push "from the ground" by expanding (opening the joints) into the "target". But this is an slightly upward motion.

Peter

Peter,

"An" is usually translated as "push" (in Chinese it is the common verb for pushing down on a button for example) and describes force that moves in a downward direction.

Many people that practice Taijiquan will refer to a forward shove or "uproot" as "An," when these kinds of techniques should properly be refered to as "Tui" ("to push" as in Tui Shou or pushing hands).

The four primary energies of Taijiquan are "Peng" (energy rising), "Lu" (energy moving to the rear), "Ji" (energy moving forward) and "An" (energy moving downward).

Tim,

thanks a lot for the explanation.

Can you please explain, how "An" as "energy movin downward" is done?

When i take a look as example to the push in the last sequence of "Grasp the birds Tail" it is allways done with the hands and body moving upwards.

I do it both ways, as push with an opening from the ground and a weight shift and as push with a shifting of the weight forward and a body drop at the end.

I am a little bit confused which one is the right "An" technique.

Peter

The "An" energy is done after the press and before the straight forward pushing movement.

In the old Yang forms, after you do "press", you extend your arms to the front and turn the palms downward, then you shift the weight back and bring both hands back in a movement called "Shuang Lu" (double roll back), at the end of the double roll back, your press both palms straight downward ("An"), then lift the hands again ("Peng") then push more or less straight forward ("Tui" push)as you shift the weight forward again.

Hi Tim,

thanks a lot. Now i understand!

Peter

One of the ideas in doing it the way Tim described was to deflect an attack downwards before pushing up and away. If the opponent resists the downward pressure when he feels it then it will be easier to suddenly change directions and push him up and away -- if your timing is better than his.

Hi Tim,

very interresting informastions. After the Shuang LU, when you press down (=an), do you shift weight forward or do you an with weight on the rear leg? Only my small frame teacher taught "an" as a downward push, all other Yang style teachers I've met tell the common known form of a straight forward push is "an". I think the idea of pushing down is the correct "an". I was taught to shift weight forward while pushing down. If pushing down on the rear leg after the Shuang Lu, due to him it should be considered as "cai". How is your idea? Also I remember, that the common known an (= the forward push) he considered as a form of "Ji" (press), since the only a difference compared to the first "ji" after Lu in posture is the way, how you hold the right arm and hand. Instead of pressing the left hand against the right forearm, youi press it directly against the opponent.

"An" is only push *down* if the 8 gates have directions associated with them - why should they need directions? Think about it... how can 'shoulder power' have a direction? Do you have to do "pull down" in a downward direction? You can do it in any direction...

"An" is "push" the direction is immaterial.

Hans-Peter,
I was taught to do the "an" movement as the weight starts to move from the rear forward, in a kind of curving motion.

Eggnog,
You are confusing directions with techniques. The "Four Directions" (Si Zheng) are the four primary methods of generating force (up, down, forward and backward). They are done in specific directions. The "Four Corners" (Si Ou) are technical applications, Plucking, Rending, Elbowing and Body Striking ("Kao" is more properly translated as "body striking" and can be applied with any part of the torso, including the head, not only with the shoulder. It is a technical application, not a set direction of force).

Thanks for the reply Tim. Are you saying, for instance, that Ji has a specific direction? It's often said that Peng is the root of them all. I understand Ji as a type of force (i.e. a using Peng in a certain way) rather than a direction. I don't see why you can't use that force in any direction (up, down, forward, backward). Granted, it's normally performed in a forwards direction, but why restrict it to forward?

Eggnog,
Right, you can use the same type of force in different directions. The Four Directions are just labels used to describe the particular directions of the force. Also, there is a certain type of force associated with each that has proven to be most efficient in those directions.

All power in Taijiquan is supposed to come from the force of the whole body used in a coordinated unit (the broader meaning of "Peng Jing"). Using the force in different vectors and speeds is what gives rise to the various names used to describe the variations of the force. So when a Taijiquan practitioner refers to the force of "Ji," he is referring to whole body power used a specific way in a specific direction.

Force is force, the labels are only a convenience of communication.

Thanks Tim. I agree in a general sense with what you are saying, especially about labels, but our understanding may be slightly different in the specifics.

Attributing "specific directions" to Peng Lu Ji and An (i.e. An is downward, Ji is forward) is a way of giving beginners a simple way to understand them. This is necessary to start with since without that direction (to aid a physical demonstration) the concepts are too nebulous. However, scratch beneath the surface and the idea of a "specific" direction becomes meaningless.

So, for example, when I refer to Ji I'm referring to Peng being used in a particular way (it has a particular "feeling" that distinguishes it from An, for example), but without a "specific direction".

So, based on my understanding the Push movement you describe as "Tui" in "the old Yang forms" I would call "An", even though the direction of force is not downwards. The part you would call "An" I would include as all part of the "Lu" movement.

Am I right in guessing that you use the "old Yang forms" as an example because this "palms down" position before the push doesn't occur in Sun style?

Like you say, it's all labels (splitting hairs) really - in application (take the Yang form for example) the more important thing is that when pushing somebody you first successfully uproot them, (call that "Lu" [my interpretation] or "Lu followed by "An" [your interpretation]) then you push them a fair distance (if that's your aim) using whole body coordinated force ["An" in my interpretation and "Tui" in yours].

Right, my example is of the old Yang form.

Hi Eggnogg,

thanks for your clarifications. I wish to understand your ideas completely, so is it possible to describe that " particular feeling" of ji and an you mean, which makes the difference between them? Is it in your opinion possible to do "ji" with both palms forward? In this case - where's the difference to "an" with both palms forward - or does "ji" afford a certain way to hold hands, arms etc.(maybe the kind as commonly shown in Grasp sparrows tail)?
Regards
Peter

Hi Peter,

It's possible to explain further, but it's a tall order - describing 'feelings' over a disucssion forum is obviously always going to be an incomplete description, and also what feels one way to one person will inevitably feel different to another (which is one of the difficulties in learning this stuff in the first place).

With that caveat:

Lets take An first - it's either an upward or a downward force when done properly. It's a long, smooth issuing of energy. Another descrption of it is 'the great wind' - that's the feeling. It can be used in one way to lift the opponent of their feet or in another to make them feel like they are being crushed into the ground (more difficult to do). N.B. Like all good techniques you must first uproot your opponent before you apply push.

Ji in contrast is a cross between An and Tsai (pull down/shock) Tsai is sudden and sharp, so Ji is a mixture of percussive and penetrating forces. The trigram which represents Ji is often described as 'the needle within cotton', the idea of something soft and fluffy surrounding a needle, so within the push there's a sharp point that can crush/peirce. You can juggle these forces around for demonstration purposes, since Ji with more 'shock' and less 'push' could injure your training partner it's normally demonstrated with more 'push' in it.

In both cases the way you hold your hands is irrelevent. For instance, you don't have to do Ji wih the hands touching, as it is presented in most Taiji forms. You can do it with a single palm for instance, or in a posture that looks more like a double-handed push. It's the internal 'feeling' and way you issue power that defines Ji.

As I mentioned, my efforts to explain this will inevitably fall short. This is not an easy concept to understand without physical demonstration. It's very hard to grasp this particular bird's tail

Hi Eggnogg,
fine post! You have found good words to explain feelings and I think I understand what you mean. As far as I've understood my teachers, I could say nothing more than that your explanations hit the point. I now would also agree to your former statements concerning "labels". Not the name of the labels are omportant but the kind of energy. Insofar I also show this kind of "great wind" energy after the "Shuang Lu" and the "needle in cotton" after the first Lu in Grasp S T. In the end I also think that the directions are unimportant. I like your descriptions. Therefore I would like to enlarge the discussion and bring the movement of "peng" into play. Originally described as "upward" energy - if directions are unimportant, one could also think about peng in a forward or sideway direction. Following your "needle in cotton" idea for ji, how would you explain the difference of a forward ji (lets take an execution with the outside of an forearm) and a forward (more horizontally, also with the outside of a forearm) peng?
Best regards
Peter

Hi Peter,

I'm glad that my description made some sense to you. I think that pinnng down 'peng' will be even more troublesome than Ji and An though!

The popular definition of Peng amongst Tai Chi 'intellecutals' is that it's setting up a 'ground path' to the point of contact with the opponent, so that the solidness of the ground can be used to neautalise their push or to issue the ground force at them. I don't think that's too bad a description really (although why you'd want to provide resistance to a push is beyond me), and also the other popular idea that Peng is using whole body force is another good general description. However, neither idea really encapsulates the concept of Peng totally for me.

Peng is both something you need to posses in your movements in Taiji and something you can 'do' to somebody. Peng is the root of all Yang energy usage in Taiji. All the postures of your form, at all times must contain Peng - everything perfectly rounded and 'full'. The Taiji classics give plenty of poetic descriptions of this state of no excess, no insufficiency.

So, in Taiji Peng is always present. Peng the 'technique' involves a very subtle neautralisation of the opponents incoming force. Imagine punching a hard rubber ball - it would give slightly then bounce your force out with a lot of power - that's the feeling of Peng when used as a technique. And just like the rubber ball, if there is no power appied against it then non can be issued. This Peng technique can neautralise and uproot the opponent, ready for you to apply a throwing or striking technique. It stands to reason that the more force they attack with, the further away they will be bounced.

When you use the other 'gates' of Taiji you are manipulating this Peng feeling in different ways, sometimes in conjunction with Lu. Lu can be viewed as almost an abscence of energy, which in turn creates something (the idea that something comes from nothing, Taiji from Wuji). In Lu you keep your Peng structure, but simply 'lead the opponent into emptyness' by the simultaneous application of sticking and yielding. Lu is the basis for all Yin energy use in Taiji.

Appendum: Also, to help understand my concept of the energies being undefined by the hand formations, imagine the Push Hands position where you adopt what is commonly called a 'peng' arm position to receive your opponents push. As he/she pushes you yield - here you are doing Lu, even though your arm position is in the classic 'peng' position from the form. Hope that helps!

Hi Eggnog,

thanks again for explaining your concepts. Yes - they make sense to me. To understand your peng-analogy I'd like to know, that when you speak about the light give of a rubberball and the following backbouncing do you mean that this action (as a technique) has to be done with the same part of the body. I mean while doing the peng technique with the right forearm and receiving the opponents force with it (= the give) should this same forearm also attack (= the bouncing back)?

When you say in your push hands szenario, that yielding with the "peng arm" is actually "Lu" would you say that stepping forward with the "peng-arm" (= lifting opponents arm slantingly upwards) then is "Lie" in your concept?

Regards
Peter

Hi Hans-Peter,

"when you speak about the light give of a rubberball and the following backbouncing do you mean that this action (as a technique) has to be done with the same part of the body."

Yes, if you think about what happens when you punch a rubber ball, it's the part you applied force to that 'springs back'. (The rest of the ball is already 'full'). You have to 'bounce' on the point of contact between you and the opponent, otherwise there would be no effect on them. Remember the 'give' is very, very slight to the point of being unperceptable (unless you know what you're looking for).

"I mean while doing the peng technique with the right forearm and receiving the opponents force with it (= the give) should this same forearm also attack (= the bouncing back)?"

Yes - if you are demonstrating 'pure' Peng that's how you'd do it. If you are borrowing their force to bounce them ,then (using Peng alone) you can only borrow the force on the point of application.

Of course, in a self defence or push hands situation you wouldn't HAVE to do it like this. For instance, a popular saying from the classics is that 'if I feel pressure on the right I empty the right', and the same on the left, so imagine a push hands scenario where you are pushed on the left shoulder, you could turn your shoulder away and transfer this force back through your right shoulder into a punch with your right hand, using their own energy to hit them back. This is what the classics call 'turning the waist like a wheel'. This is using some Lu energy, and is a slightly different concept to the 'pure' peng approach of 'bounce'.

An important point to mention is that it's all very well to describe what it should be like/feel like, but that doesn't help you actually do it in the first place. Unless you can manifest Peng energy in your movements then this discussion can only be accademic. How to manifest Peng is a discussion you need to have with your teacher and not something that can be explained here.