Hi guys, I've been really enjoying the Sun Taiji DVD set, but it raises a question for me. I'm currently learning Xingyi and Bagua from Aiping Cheng, who also practices Sun Taiji. When I showed her the Sun Taiji I learned from the DVDs she said, "not bad, but you have to remain level (not go up and down) and you need to 'hanxiong babei,'" i.e. slightly tuck the tailbone and round the upper back.

You can see her doing a "competition" Sun Taiji form here, but the fact that it's a competition form doesn't seem to make a difference in her execution--she does the form Tim teaches in the same mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6CfhgoyIi8

Although she agrees that each style of Taiji has different execution, she views that all of them should include this "hanxiong babei" which applies to Xingyi and Bagua as well (but not "external" arts). Now I've encountered this difference before when I studies Taiji in Taiwan with a guy named Zhou Baofu. You can see that he practices Taiji with his butt sticking out, since he views that the stances of Taiji are really no different from those of Longfist or other Northern arts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKoa-uMcRc

And it's not just him, nor is it just Taiji, in my experience. Rather, it seems like Taiwanese martial artists in general do less of the tailbone tuck, not only in Taiji, but also in Bagua (and maybe Xingyi?). Consider one of Tim's teachers, Luo Dexiu--though he isn't "sticking his butt out," he does look like he maintains more of what Tim describes as the "natural curve in the spine." (also from Taiwan) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWvya9MVhjs&feature=related

Compare to Yang Hai, whose execution looks more like my teacher's and who seems to do a bit more tailbone tuck (albeit not as noticeable as in Taiji): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baiSzHS7R00&feature=related

So what it boils down to is: can I do the "hanxiong babei" and remaining relatively even (little up and down) while also complying with Tim's requirements to maintain the natural curve of the spine as if carrying a heavy barbell across the shoulders? Can I still generate the kind of "upward wave" force Tim describes coming from opening the front hip and kind of rebounding out of the front leg while not having much up and down movement?

Is "hanxiong babei" a requirement for Taiji in the same way as Xingyi and Bagua or is it slightly different? Am I seeing a contradiction where there isn't one or are these just different ways of doing things? Also, is my impression that Mainland practitioners seem to do more "tailbone tuck" than Taiwanese accurate?

Keep in mind I have great respect for all the teachers whose methods I described and videos I linked--but that makes it all the more troublesome trying to reconcile them, especially with regards to Taiji.

I suppose the best test would be- to stand with a barbell across your shoulders or holding weighs in both hands and execute a slow deep squat using the natural posture (as Tim suggests)

then compare the feeling by executing an identical squat with the tuck.

Not to be sarcastic but it doesn't matter what a form looks like. Who had more skills doug what they do? That's a more important question. Tucking the tailbone or not works fine when doing solo form practice in any style. Can you transfer what you're doing, formwise, to real applIcation?

Well, for the barbell squat test the slightly arched/natural curvature of the back feels much more natural, which is why I'm inclined towards Tim's guideline. Just because you wouldn't want to squat a barbell in a given position, however, doesn't necessarily mean there's no value to said position in learning power generation or what have you. For example, the tailbone tucked, upper back curved position feels very "right" to me in practicing Xingyi five elements, but somewhat less so in Taiji.

I do wonder if some Mainland artists haven't wrongly said "okay, Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua are all 'internal' so they must all accord with these standards" (standards which might in fact be only appropriate to Xingyi or maybe Xingyi and Bagua)--that is the desire to keep Taiji within the "internal" fold might have caused people to make changes which obscure its more "Longfist-esque" roots. But then, Aiping has been at this for decades and had some very traditional teachers in addition to her Wushu background (I think she actually studied a bit with Sun Jianyun, like Tim, as well), so I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt that she knows what she's doing and why.

As for who can apply it, I mean, they all can--at least Aiping and Baofu, the ones I've met can. I've never met Tim, Luo Dexiu, or Yang Hai, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt based on videos and reputation that they are also quite good at applying what they know.

As for what I can apply myself, I'd say again that Tim's "natural spine" method and "rebound out of the front foot" feels more powerful to me, but I'm also just a beginner in Sun Taiji, so I don't really feel my experience can be authoritative. Also, I'm still not sure that these two things are mutually exclusive. Maybe one can have "natural spine" and "bounce out of the front leg by opening the hip" at the same time as one maintains "hanxiong babei" and relatively little up-down.

I think when you go up and down in the form that is to practice the uprooting aspect. In order to push someone you can't push straight back because that directs the force into the supporting back leg. Pushing with an upward motion doesn't allow that to happen.

In the long stances of southern Kung Fu styles & shuai jiao you don't generally rise up and down when doing stances. The rising up breaks your power when moving.

Hi Casey,

I approach postural alignment from the point of view that there is one best way to use the body, that being according to the body's natural design, since it is designed to be used that way (it would seem to be self-evident, but I've found it often is not), so there should be no difference in alignment among the Internal styles, since one doesn't morph into different musculoskeletal systems when practicing different styles/movements.

In regards to upward and downward movement, some Taijiquan teachers will advise keeping the head at the same height at all times with no up or down movement (which makes it difficult to explain why movements like "Single Whip" or "Needle at Sea Bottom" don't violate their "always keep the head at the same height" rule). This idea may sometimes be beneficial in the beginning stages of training, but it violates one of the fundamental principles of Taijiquan practice.

All movements in Taijiquan should be "three dimensional" (li ti) in nature; this involves horizontal displacement, vertical displacement and rotational movement occurring simultaneously at all times. Shifting the weight while turning the body without the vertical forces of compress/rebound is referred to as "flat turning" (ping zhuan) and is viewed as incomplete movement that results in less than whole body power. The vertical displacement can be large or small, but it is necessary if the goal is to generate the potential force of the body as a coordinated and unified whole.

I suppose the meaning of "han xiung, ba bei" is open to interpretation, but if one opts to adhere to the original meaning of the characters (I do), it is to "hold" or "contain" the ribcage in it's normal position while "lifting" the back. The result is an open and lifted chest with the upper back lengthened and not hunched over forward (for a good visual reference of the correct, natural posture, look at any small child). There is no variant of meaning in Chinese in which "han" is ever taken to mean "depress" or "collapse." The character "ba" means to "pull upward" not "slump forward."

Finally, as Timothy offered above, the ultimate test of how one should hold their alignment and generate force in a martial art is how well it works when you are fighting. Since this yields an objective rather than subjective result, everyone should be able to eventually figure it out for themselves.

Hi Tim, thanks for the detailed response. I do tend to agree with you, both about the logic of structure and the usual meanings of "han" and "ba."

So when you practice a santi-shi for Xingyi, do you maintain the same posture just described (chest slightly lifted, shoulder blades squeezing, butt maintaining natural curvature of the spine), as opposed the whole "rounded back producing a straight line in the spine" thing?

This type of position seems much more common in Xingyi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFaj2WImkU

I wonder if maybe this type of posture isn't supposed to help develop some sort of muscular "connection" that would ultimately only be a transitory position you would use during "fa-jin," as opposed to something you'd actually use to fight? (Not trying to convince you to believe in some body mechanics you don't find useful, just trying to puzzle out where the difference arises).

Or do you apply the same postural requirements to your Santi-shi as to your Taiji?

Thanks again.

"So when you practice a santi-shi for Xingyi, do you maintain the same posture just described (chest slightly lifted, shoulder blades squeezing, butt maintaining natural curvature of the spine), as opposed the whole "rounded back producing a straight line in the spine" thing? "

"Or do you apply the same postural requirements to your Santi-shi as to your Taiji? "

Yes, please reference my comment on "there is one best way to use the body" that started my post above. It will answer any and all question on how I align my posture.

Okay, I see. It differs significantly from how I'm being taught now, but it does make sense. I'll see if I can't integrate the concepts of "one correct postural alignment" and "movement along three axes" with what I'm learning in class.

Good luck with your training, let me know how it goes.

My teacher was a longterm student of Sun Jianyun and he has never mentioned anything about tucking the tailbone.His posture looks very similar to that of Tim and nothing is contrived or forced.His approach to teaching is slightly different but the applications are almost identical.

Maybe it depends whether a teacher has a big butt or no arse. Look can be deceiving.

(see top-right pic)
http://www.africancraftsmarket.com/Bushman-people.htm

Tim: which of your teachers (and any other teachers you know of) use the same body mechanics that you settled on as the best?

Actually, virtually all of my teachers advocated natural posture (although with some variation in amounts of tension used and sometimes with different emphasis on breathing methods).

I did have a couple of Taijiquan teachers I studied with for relatively short periods that taught the collapsed chest, tucked tailbone "Senile Posture," and they tended to be less into practicing Taijiquan as a martial art.

It might be useful to you to look at pictures of our teacher's teachers; it's not difficult to find pictures of people like Wu Jianquan, Sun Lutang, Yang Chenfu, Fu Zhensong, Wang Xiangzhai, Li Cunyi, Zhang Zhaodong, Sun Xikun, Cheng Youlong and others who were active in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to get an idea of the posture of the famous teachers who were known for practical martial skills. These men were much closer to the source of their respective styles, and their primary concern was being able to actually fight.

I have head one teacher describe the use of butt tucking in an interesting way. When you are flowing with an opponent trying to get position on him you stay in natural posture. When you get into a position to throw you tuck your butt to get more rooting. He calls this being unconnected and then being connected. He's not a wrestler but uses this method to unbalance people and then strike them.

The only problem with that method is, you are less stable when you tuck your hips.

Here's a guy who doesn't tuck his butt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs&feature=pyv&ad=9460614346&kw=chen%20t aiji&gclid=CMKN18WwgqgCFSU6gwodaxprqQ

Thanks again for the information Tim.

Tim,

I know that I am getting in on this thread late, but I was curious about something.

My teacher has always said that the hips should be like you are sitting on a stool.

What I have always interpreted this to mean is a slightly tucked position. In my research thus far, I have found that the best position is to be in "neutral", not tucked all the way, but not completely untucked either.

If you don't tuck a little then your hips have no range of motion in that direction, but if you overtuck then you are just as bad off.

I have found that this "neutral" tucked position has significantly improved myself and my student's root, peng, and power.

Any thoughts?

"please reference my comment on "there is one best way to use the body" that started my post above. It will answer any and all question on how I align my posture."

He does the same thing with his jujitsu too, and the number of supporting exercises he teaches for it. It works.

Funnily enough, it also made my classical jujitsu both better and make more sense....