Thanks for the info, Tim.

Tim, I was wondering who practises the Old Yang Style you refer to in comparison to Chen Pan Ling's form?

It is my understanding that the fa-jing elements are indeed expressed in Chen Pan Ling's form, and the set bears a close similarity to the form Erle teaches as the Old Yang. Given that Erle claims to have learnt this form from a gentleman who would have been Chen Pan Ling's classmate under Yang Shao Hou, I think there is evidence that Chen Pan Ling's form is indeed the Old Yang form.

Your comments suggest to me that it is the flavour or execution of the set that differs, which is why I'm wondering which practitioners you are comparing. Apologies if I've posted twice, I was having some trouble with my browser

Brad,
Chen Pan Ling's form is not the Old Yang Form. It is a combination of the Yang, Chen and Wu forms. Chen Pan Ling may have taught an original Yang form as well, but that isn't the form we were referring to.

I practiced the Yang style Medium Frame and Small Frame (Yang Shou Hou's form), they differ considerably from Chen Pan Ling's combined form.

Erle Montaigue claims that he learnt his "Old Yang Lu Chan" form from "Chang Yiu-chun", supposedly the 2nd cousin of Yang Shao Hou.

According to Erle, only 2 or 3 people ever learnt the Old Yang Lu Chan style from Yang Shao Hou, one of those people being "Chang Yiu-chun", and another being Chen Pan Ling.

Erle claims that the publication of the book "Chen Pan Ling's Original Tai Chi Chuan Textbook" proves the authenticity of his "Old Yang Lu Chan" form.

I have not seen the Chen Pan Ling book, nor am I familiar with Chen's form.

I have however, studied Wang Shu Jin's tai chi form. My understanding is that Wang Shu Jin first learnt tai chi from Chen Pan Ling and then subsequently changed the form somewhat by incorporating elements from Xingi and Bagua.

Although it follows the same general sequence of movements found in the Yang and the Wu styles, the manner in which the postures in the Wang Shu Jin form are performed is distinctly different to those other 2 styles.

I imagine that, overall, Wang's form is still quite close to that of Chen Pan Ling.

Out of curiosity, I borrowed one of Erle's tapes from a friend for the purpose of seeing exactly what his "Old Yang Lu Chan" form looks like.

At first, I could only recognise some of the normal Yang style postures in Erle's form.

However, after viewing the tape several more times, I was surprised to realise that many of the movements and postures correlated closely with those in the Wang Shu Jin form.

The whole form appears to be mainly a mixture of Erle's Yang Cheng Fu form and the Wang Shu Jin (or possible Chen Pan Ling) form, with some Chen style postures and other things thrown in here and there, and punctuated throughout by sudden bursts of "Fa-Jing".

Wei Shuren is a Yang style tai chi expert from Beijing whose lineage, through his teacher Wang Yongquan, can be traced directly back to Yang Shao Hou.

Wei's form, as depicted in his book "The True Teachings of Yang Jianhou's Secret Yang Style Taijiquan", looks nothing like either Erle's "Old Yang Lu Chan" form or the Wang Shu Jin form.

I am not in a position to comment upon any similarities between Wei's form and the form that Tim learnt from Chen Zhuo Zhen.

Further information regarding Wei Shuren and his teacher can be found on Jarek Szymanski's homepage.

Perhaps Erle points to the true origins of his "Old Yang Lu Chan" form on his website in the "Yang Lu-ch'an" article when he mentions that Erik Petermann, in an article reviewing one of Erle's tapes, claimed that he had sent Erle photo-copies of a book showing much of the Chen Pan Ling version of the Old Yang style in the early 1980's.

Did anyone hear the show on art bell the other
night about chi useage and ppt's?

The guest is an affiliate of george dillman and
went into some detail about their usage and
how they work.

He also spoke of waving his hand and producing an k.o. on an person.He was shown on discovery
channel,and the learning channel also.

Just Fyi.

No--I began listening to it for about 5 minutes and it sounded so stupid that I had to turn it off. I did, however, listen to Art's discussion with Hal Lindsey, which happened to be an excellent discussion of world events and how it all ties in to humanities eventual demise. Good luck trying to put the old Spock attack on someone, unless you're sneaking up behind .

Dan stated "Erle Montaigue claims that he learnt his "Old Yang Lu Chan" form from "Chang Yiu-chun", supposedly the 2nd cousin of Yang Shao Hou". Based on objective research, isn't it easy to backtrack, independant of Erle's commentary and ascertain the veracity of his statement?

Simply check to see if the second cousin of Shao-hou is as stated.

well then, the fact that Shao-hou might have actually existed would substantiate all of Erle's fantabulous claims wouldn't it?!!?

My favorite is that his daughter regularly knocks him out with Dim Mak. what a kook.

Bob #2

The daughter business, is that on his website? His other material teaches strongly against allowing knockouts in training.

Speaking of Chi disruption,I was practicing last night.As I corkscrewed my fist a bottle cap popped of a Fosters.I also calmed the marine environs( no Great White attacks).I also was able to pop my eyeballs out a full quarter inch greater than any previous efforts.Pretty good huh

Mark,

How the hell am I supposed to know? I'm far too busy to read the ramblings of a kook. I'm sure if you poke around his website you'll find the dim mak stories about his daughter... you can also revel in his tales of having to sleep in seperate rooms than his wife because he has so much chi his limbs fly about while he sleeps.... really.

Did anyone notice the the first three letters of the word "chicken" spell "chi"? This really freaks me out. Feathers everywhere, I have to go...

Have you ever heard of the karate master who could explode a chi cken from 25 feet away with a chi blast?

www.worldkungfu.com

MAXXIMUM RANGE GOAT KNOCKOUT ACTION

I think it would be pretty near impossible for any Westerner to prove or disprove whether Yang Shao-Hou had a 2nd cousin called Chang Yiu-chun.

Just as it would be to prove or disprove Erle's assertion that 'Chang Yiu-chun' stowed away on a ship to Australia in his old age where, by a stroke of good fortune, Erle just happened to meet him one day down by the docks in Sydney (article 'On Chang Yiu-chun & Erle Montaigue).

After all, as Erle points out, Chang was an illegal immigrant.

Therefore, there are no official records to show his arrival in Australia or subsequent departure.

Apparently, there are no independant witnesses to verify Erle's story, either.

Erle also tells us that he has never had the Chinese characters for Chang's name, therefore, when he met Chang he took a stab at the Roman spelling of Chang's name.

Without the Chinese characters, I guess it might be difficult even for a Chinese genealogist to trace Chang.

Despite this, Erle is able to produce a couple of interviews of Chang, supposedly from an old issue of China Wushu magazine published sometime in the mid 1970's.

If these interviews are authentic, it is probably safe to assume that they would originally have appeared in Chinese.

Erle tells us that he neither speaks nor writes Chinese, therefore, he could not have been responsible for translating the said interviews into English as they appear on his website.

And since Erle was in possession of the translated articles, there would have been no need for him to 'take a stab' at the spelling of Chang's name.

Of course, if anyone could locate the original issues of China Wushu magazine containing these interviews, that might suggest that Chang Yiu-chun was a real person after all.

It would not, however, prove that Chang had ever travelled to Australia or, indeed, that Erle had ever met him.

Paul Brecher is even able to provide a photo of 'Chang Yiu-chun' on his website (http://tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk/).

Erle sure has done a good job of indoctrinating his followers.

Wow, that's allot of bitterness over one guy! He must be doing something right.

Syd, not bitterness just plain amazement that anyone could buy into these stories with so much contradiction.

No name calling but anyone outside of Erle's system can see right through the holes and farfetched claims.

With all the talk about fighting skills, who of Erle's students have ever entered a ring?

No fighters, no tournaments, no Chinese language skills, no Chinese writing skills, do you really think people believe that Erle received such a high level art?

China has been quite open since his picture in the 1980s with Fu Zhong Wen. Can you think of any reasons why he hasn't traveled back to share his high level skill with other tai chi masters? You know that the story about the Chinese shunning him because this white guy revealed their secrets is a bit of a stretch.

Its not bitterness. Don't you think its kind of sad or pathetic at best?

Nothing adds up. Is that anyway to earn a living? Denial is more than a river in Egypt.

No one believes this stuff except the Erle diehards.

No bashing here Syd, but come on,Mate.
Eyes Wide Shut?

Erle is like fried liver -- you either love it or hate it -- similarly, most of the people who claim to hate both have never had a "taste" of the dish in question. I don't agree with all of his marketing methods but the man is a very good teacher and, highly unusual in Yang-style terms, he can actually apply any technique/method that he teaches against unrehearsed attacks by strangers at workshops. I have seen it live many times in the fourteen years that I have known him. It may not be "classical" Yang-style (many would argue that martially the modern Yang-style is almost dead) but it's damn good martial arts in the internal tradition.

He has never claimed to have been a student of Fu Zhong-wen, by the way, that's another internet rumour, the photo of him taken with Fu was a "souvenir" done during a martial arts tour that Erle did in China in 1985.

I understand that relationship you have with Erle but it doesn't change the fact of his distorted facts.

What I don't understand is that if he is as good as you claim, and I don't doubt the sincerity of your assessment, then why does he go down that path of hyperbole and outright distortion?

I know you're not your brother's keeper but can you at least see that over time, even if his material is good, he loses credibility.

Makes no sense, at least to me.

How about you? Does it make sense?

As you said, I am not my brother's keeper and don't have to justify Erle's claims (or, more-often, what his claims are mis-represented to be over the internet).

While I don't agree with everything he teaches or says, I do have a tremendous amount of respect for him as a person and as a martial artist. He has been one of the main influences in my understanding of taiji and pakua since 1990 and I and my students have benefitted immensely from his generosity and skill as a teacher.

Erle is not perfect and he doesn't claim to be -- in fact, one of the most charming aspects of his personality is that he doesn't agonize over what others think about him. You take what he has to offer or you don't ... Seems fair to me.