It is my understanding that Sun Lu Tang is responsible for much of the retrofitting because he was a scholar (literate) and was an exceptional martial artist. In his time martial arts were considered low brow. By adding philosophic concepts, Sun Lu Tang attempted to elevate the view people had of martial artists. After the inclusion of the idea of the "five elements" or "i ching," hsing-i and bagua could be considered both a physical and intellectual pursuit.

Here is an appropriate quote from someone who posts here and knows way more than I do about this idea, "When a modern day "New Age" practitioner of Tai Chi speaks of the art as being "good for his health and a way to align his energy with the energy of the Tao," that viewpoint came largely from Sun Lu Tang. Or when pa kua practitioners walk the pa kua circle on a California beach and talk of how "pa kua forms are physical embodiments of the I-Ching," their ideas derive largely from Sun Lu Tang. Or, when modern day practitioners of xing yi opine that "the five forms of xing yi interact like the five basic elements in Taoist cosmology," they to owe their thinking largely to Sun Lu Tang."
- Elisabeth Guo and Brian L. Kennedy, Sun Lu Tang: Fighter, Scholar and Image Maker.

Consider this: Would a guy read the bible and try to create a martial art out of what is stated in it? Probably not but if the person was trying to make his art more acceptable to people in a largely christian nation he may attempt to tie his art to ideas contained in the bible. It isn't logical to think that a physical fighting arts were developed from a philosophy. It is logical for people to learn martial arts and learn things about life or themselves and see connections to some philosophy. Later they may incorporate said philosophy into their teaching.

An additional idea is that in learning a method to hurt people a philosophy of peace or restraint may be added in an attempt to control practitioners from using their skill in nefarious ways.

It isn't a matter of what came first in a historical perspective. It is more in thinking of the natural development of physical methods.

hi craig,

Im gonna have to google "zhuan zhang" I remember reading somewhere that he learned it from a wandering monk, and it was called "rotating palm" thats probably what zhuan zhang means, my mandarin is not good :D But this still brings to question, what type of foundational philosophy was underlying zhuan zhang?

Andy, i understand that you believe that martial arts were developed first, and most of the philosophical retrofitting was done by sun lu tang.

Great information, but I still cant believe that it was all retrofitted with a philosophy that existed "before" the martial art was created.

Then again, I think that there may be some truth to the legend of the "fan kuang tzu"

http://orb.uk.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Sons_of_Reflected_Light

People that came from out of nowhere who taught the ancient chinese about acupuncture, chi gung, philosophy, etc.

Many people discredit the application of ancient chinese philosophy, and seperate the martial aspect from the spiritual/philosophical aspect..

Im not one of those people, im still trying to figure it out.

If masters like sun lu tang, and ueshiba chose to retrofit their arts with this philosophy,

Or,

If the internal arts have origins in these philosophies is something that I think is worth more study.

Robert,

"Zhuan Zhang" translates into "Turning Palm". As the "story" goes, Dong learned some meditative circle walking practice from some Daoist temple, then combined it with his martial practices. There is no evidence that Dong ever studied the Yi Jing. As Tim mentions, Dong was illiterate, as were most martial artists of the time. We are so far removed from the original conception of the art that any theories about the "foundational philosophy" of Zhuan Zhang is just that, theories, as there is no documentation to support many of the tales handed down. It's the same situation with stories like Zhang Shan Feng being the creator of Taijiquan...

With the Chinese love of mystical story telling, and the additions every generation adds to the arts, it makes certain parts of the trackable history of Chinese martial arts highly subjective. The only thing worth talking about is the functional aspect of the arts, as much of the other stuff is just blind faith.

Hey Robert,
Please reread what I wrote. I never stated what was developed first though the philosophy would predate taiji, bagua and hsing-i as these arts have more modern origins. Nor do I make any statement that these philosophies have nothing of value contained in them. These arts were not developed based on a philosophy but that isn't to say that the philosophy can't be applied to the art.

Ueshiba is another good example of what I'm explaining. Ueshiba trained with Takada in Daito Ryu. This is probably where most of his art came from though some say he learned things in China too. Ueshiba was influenced by a religious guy named Deguchi Onisaburo and his Omoto kyu religion. As Ueshiba progressed he added and emphasized the philosophic/spiritual. These things were not in Daito ryu. This is not to say that these philosophic/spiritual parts are bad and I'm certainly not denigrating them by stating what I stating. It's just the way things happen. There is a lot a person learns about himself and others in martial arts. These things come naturally through proper training.

If we observe the philosophy of the 5 elements in relation to hsing-i we could make a statement such as "The destruction cycle of the five elements show that water (drilling fist) will destroy fire (pounding fist)." Sometimes this might work but just as often it won't work. The philosophy doesn't stand up to the test of actually using it so what is the use of tying these things together? This isn't to say that there may be something of value in the 5 element philosophy and it doesn't negate the usefulness of hsing-i. Problems arise when we try to fit things together in our mind instead of letting them be what they are and appreciating/utilizing them for what they are.

For anyone curious as to why the Chinese martial arts are largely a joke that are not taken serious by anyone who can fight their way out of a wet paper bag, please see this thread. LOL! Sad!

Craig, thanks for the correction.

So you said in your post that Dong learned it from a daoist temple, and at doaist temples, they study the yi jing, right?

Jake, so you dont study chinese martial arts? And you're saying that people who study chinese martial arts cant fight their way out of a wet papaer bag?

What about Tim? Im pretty sure he studied chinese martial arts...

Or does the credit of all of his skill go straight to BJJ?

Just wondering. :D

Andy,

My mistake, you didnt make any statement of what came first.

But you obviously dont really know either, and are obviously just stating an opinion.

I guess im just one of those people that like to put things together, and respect the application of the yi jing, 5 element theory, and ancient chinese philosophy in general.

Though I do respect the opinions of Tim, and the rest of you guys, This thread hasnt really done very much to answer any real questions I have, perhaps I should look somewhere else for answers.

Anyway, thanks for the great replies, it was a pleasure talking to you all.

Robert,

I see you are having trouble grasping the concepts presented.

Here's an experiment for you that may help you better understand the relationship between concepts from the Yi Jing (a book on Chinese methods of divination) and the development of martial arts:

Read any medieval text on Geomancy (Western methods of divination) and then see if you can spontaneously invent boxing and wrestling.

This should give you a clearer understanding of which came first, concepts of fortune telling or the development of actual martial skills.

A rabid relative (by marriage!) told my daughter las month that Judo was evil because it was derived from a dance to honour the sun-god, which was worshipped by the Japanese and Taliban

I asked him what has Taliban got to do with Japanese, and he said it was the bowing on the mat.

I told her that Judo was not evil because Santa wears a red gi and that he only laughed approvingly (although a bit shocked) when she yanked his lapel last Xmas.

Talk about mixed-up retrofitting.

Robert,

Yes, some Daoists do study the Yi Jing, but Dong could not read. Since there is no mention of Dong studying the Yi Jing, we are left to guess whether he did or not, and my guess is that he didn't since he could not read.

At the end of the day it really does not matter to me if he did or did not read the Yi Jing as it really makes no difference to my study of Baguazhang. Reading the Yi Jing is not going to make me any better at Baguazhang... if anything, it's going to divert my time away from actual training.

Craig,

My point is that the daoists that taught dong a "martial art" also studied the yi jing.

And I get yours. You come to a sensible conclusion.

Tim,

I totally understand where you are coming from. I just think there is more to it than that, but obviously, its not something you really care about, so im not gonna learn anything about it here.

But you are a kickass "martial arts" teacher, and I realize that you have no interest in how philosophy applies to martial arts, and I totally respect that, especially coming from you.

Take care guys, it was a pleasure talking with you.

rangga jones,

I hear you man, I know some people who are so closed minded that they prevent their own kids from taking certain classes, and learning certain things, due to their religious bigotry...

Funny story. :D

I think something that gets missed in these discussions is how "THEY" thought about these things. Not how "WE" think about them.

Especially for instructors and men writing books about these things, attempting to convey concepts, etc. Men who did not care just about being a better fighter, but about how they might understand WHY they were better fighters, attempt to conceptualize their physical performance, mental performance, and tactical thinking, etc. and they would do so using the terminology that is current within their milieu.

This might in particular be true if those concepts were what they understood as "science" or as "medicine," both of which have a lot to offer to the martial arts.

We should also understand that what one man may be talking about may be WORLDS APART from what another is, based simply on their own understanding or lack of understanding, their own credulity, their own expectations and fantasies, etc.

A simple review of the various uses of the word qi/ki reveal that two people could very likely be reading the same sentence in absolutely different ways.

Remember too that many of the old books/works on martial arts were intended for "initiated" students - the phrases, words used, etc. might be in philosophical language or poetry or nonsense, that a layman would assign his own understanding to (especially if it was culturally current term...) but that a student who had the specific instruction from a teacher on what he meant by the Wu Xing (which for that particular teacher might mean an actual physical teaching having nothing to do with what fist beats what other fist...)would "get" in a totally different way. With Chinese pedagogy being as it is, especially in martial arts, it was no skin off the teacher's nose at all that most people were reading into it things that were not meant at all, and only his "indoor" students actually knew what it meant from a practical perspective.

We also have to make allowances for the fact that most of these people were superstitious and unscientific. Even the great fighters may have added some of these concepts later on either out of their own superstitions (likely), for the greater cachet of "intellectualism" it offered to RICH potential students ("Oh yeah, we have that stuff too...." more likely) or, that the teacher thought it explained something he was doing - (possible), and it might give some insight into how THAT teacher thought.

Robert,

The thing it, there's no proof or documentation saying that Dong learned a "martial art" from the Daoist temple, only that he learned a form of meditative circle walking which he fused with his martial knowledge (a knowledge which he had before he supposedly went to the Daoists). Even that story is blurry at best.

I find it highly questionable that Daosits then even practiced martial arts, let alone passing systems on to people. Looking at a lot of the versions of Taiji coming out of Wu Dang these days, they have the look of bastardized Chen and Yang style... which means that they are modern inventions. A lot of this type of Chinese culture is big business in China and the west, and a lot of these temples, the government... are happy to perpetuate these stories as it produces cultural capitol. The Daosit/Buddhist martial art stories of the past make for fantastical fairy tales and cool Hong Kong cinema, but I find much of it hard to believe, not only because a lot of it seems logically far fetched, but there is also no believable documentation to back up a lot of the stories... and I don't typically just take peoples word for it, regardless of the lineage they come from, unless the argument seems based in logic.

The 5 element theory is an acupuncture treatment theory. It has nothing to do with the martial arts which is why I don't believe the hsing I connected form has any purpose except hand eye coordination.

Basic acupuncture theory:

Metal-lungs and large intestine
Water- kidneys and bladder
Wood- liver and gall bladder
Fire- heart and small intestine
Earth- Spleen and stomach

When the lungs are affected(coughing, cold/flu, asthma, weak immune system) you can needle the lung meridian. Since the lungs and the large intestine are linked channels they can treat each other. So if a person has constipation and asthma you can needle either lung or large intestine points or both depending what other symptoms the person is complaining about.

Since metal comes before water it is the mother of water meaning if your kidney/bladder is deficient(erectile dysfunction, excessive urination, not being able to pee all the way, osteoporosis, broken bones, etc) you can needle points the metal points of the affected water meridians.

It works great in Chinese medical theory...but not so much in fight training.

Kit, absolutely great post.

Craig, I totally hear you.

Timber, You're studying acupuncture? Cool!

Im not so focused on the debate as to what came first, but I am interested in how martial arts can be retrofitted with these philosophical concepts, and why, certain masters applied ancient philosphies/forms of divination in their arts.


Im pretty sure Tim would say its a waste of time. xD. And I totally respect that, but im stubborn

Robert,

Actually, I don't think explaining martial concepts in commonly understood esoteric/archaic terms that would help people of the time gain a better understanding of the principles and strategies of their art was/is a waste of time.

I think the problems start when certain conceptual "labels" are given to straightforward fighting systems, and then future generations of practitioners (most often not as skilled as their predecessors) set out to rearrange existing structures and techniques to fit the labels. That always spells trouble for practical efficiency.