Archive through August 23, 2004

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Who knows about Sun Style Tai Chi?: Archive through August 23, 2004
   By Luke Rath on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 04:24 pm: Edit Post

I was wondering if anyone knew about Sun Style Tai Chi. I have been researching Tai Chi and have found out that there are four major styles of Tai Chi...Chen, Yang, Wu and Sun (I believe that Chen is the "oldest" while Sun is the "youngest" ). After doing some minor research on these styles, I chose to learn Sun Style because it is the most recently developed and it has some other Chinese martial arts embedded in the form (Pa Kua and a few others, I believe). There seems to be a vast amount of information about Chen, Yang, and Wu styles, but not much on Sun Style. Is this because Sun Style is a less effective, efficient, or "competitive" form? I know that all styles of Tai Chi are useful in creating a healthy mind and body, actually, most exercise will give a healthy body and focused mind. Which of these styles is best suited for self-defense? I would like to know and explore it after I have finished the Sun Form. Why doesn't anyone really talk about Sun Tai Chi?

P.S. - Anyone know about Sun Tai Chi classes in Staten Island, N.Y.? (Or nearby)


   By Capt Ahab on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 04:59 pm: Edit Post

Hi Luke,

Looks like you've come to the right place. Tim teaches Sun style Ba Gua & T'ai Ji although the T'ai Ji is in private lessons only. I'm sure he'll be here soon to answer any questions you may have. I'd throw in my 2 cents but my forte is really Ba Gua.

The Capt


   By Tim on Monday, October 15, 2001 - 05:37 pm: Edit Post

Hi Luke,
Sun Lu Tang studied Wu (Yu Xiang) style Tai Ji Quan with Hao Wei Zhen in his 50's. Later, Sun combined elements of Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang with the Tai Ji Quan to create his own combined form. I studied Sun style Tai Ji Quan with Sun Lu Tang's daughter and grandson in Beijing.

The Sun style is somewhat less known as it is comparatively 'newer' than most of the other syles (although it is fairly popular in Beijing). I found the Sun style relatively easier to learn and apply than some of the other Tai Ji Quan styles. I don't think it's really possible to judge which style of Tai Ji Quan is "best" suited for self defense, it depends on the quality of instruction and the talent and work of the practitioner.


   By Buddy on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 06:56 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,
How would you compare Sun style to the "Chen Panling" style?
Buddy


   By Tim on Tuesday, October 16, 2001 - 02:13 pm: Edit Post

The Sun style is done in a more upright stance. The footwork always involves a follow step, much like Xing Yi Quan (actually, more like Western boxing). The Chen Pan Ling style has a greater variety of movements, and is a longer form. I'd also say the 'silk reeling' or spiralling movements are more pronounced in Chen Pan Ling's form.


   By bradley arnall on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 08:46 am: Edit Post

Is that southern Mass Buddy (T)? email me bradley


   By Garold Marion (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 10:58 am: Edit Post

Years ago I learned the 73 Sun Style Tai Chi form. Since first learning it, I've watched several videos of the form being performed by well-known instructors, though never have I seen one made by members of Sun Lutang's family.

Anyhow, nowhere was I taught or have I seen any fajing in this form. Was that simply not taught to me; does it come later in the training; or is it something that one does not do in this form?

Thanks,
Garold Marion


   By Brad Bauman (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 10:03 am: Edit Post

[QUOTE]Years ago I learned the 73 Sun Style Tai Chi form. Since first learning it, I've watched several videos of the form being performed by well-known instructors, though never have I seen one made by members of Sun Lutang's family.[/QUOTE]
The 73 form is the modern competition short form. Though everything in it is Sun style, I've been told Sun Jian Yun didn't like. Didn't really feel any need for it I guess(kind of a familly pride thing?). Anyway, I like it... Gives me a Sun style form to practice until I can find the time to learn the long form, lol. That way I don't end up wasting my teacher's time :P


   By xan0q (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit Post

Though I agree with the semantics of study and application, Sun 'synthesized' his baquazhang and hsing-i with principles of Wu (Yuxian) style that he learnt in 1-3 months with Hao. Keeping in mind that Sun Lutang revolutionized "neijiaquan" by writing about them and popularizing them. He was one of the few of his day who was literate enought to explain training, though his main words were practice, practice and practice.

No secret here. The 73 form is not really that different thought the attempt at "everyone doing the same form" mindset is way off. When I do the Beijing FOrms, i tend to use 'traditional' vs the exaggerated wushu extended movements.


   By Beneda (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 07:22 pm: Edit Post

Where on the internet can I obtain a description with explanation of the 73 forms Tai Chi Sun Style without having to purchase. I have the
DVD but would like printed description with explanation. Thank you for your assistance.


   By Harry Milner (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 11:51 pm: Edit Post

The Nice thing about the 73 movement Competition Wu Shu Sun style form is that it teaches duality of side. Sun Lu Tang's original form is done from one side only. Combative applications make more sense using the movements from Sun Lu Tang's form and the Medicinal benefits are greater from doing this original form.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:29 pm: Edit Post

It is a good thing to practise forms/training methods so that you work your body evenly.

Unfortunately, it also makes more sense to practise the martial techniques to favour your dominant side rather than wasting time trying to do each technique equally well from both a "rightie" and a "leftie" perspective.

The traditional forms don't tend to be evenly balanced except in those postures that are particularly useful from a fighting.stylistic sense. This should tell us what these internal forms were originally designed to do!

They weren't mechanisms for getting in touch with your inner child or universal qi.

I learned the competition version of the Sun-style first and regret the time that I wasted practising it in some ways.


   By John Shane Crilly (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 06:39 pm: Edit Post

I am sure that Tim will know better than I, but I believe the important difference between the competition form and the traditional form (which both take about the same time to perform) are in the slap-kick ( I understand that Sun Jian Yun objected to the jump as being contradictory to Sun taiji principles, but I have this only on hearsay) and the performance of "repulse monkey" which in the competition set are either brush knee in all directions or a retreat that actually belongs in a xing-yi set. the flavour of the traditionsl move while almost the same is different because in the trad set there is a real retreat with a lot of twisting that is distinct from the other taiji styles and points to different applications. You will not get this from the competition or 48form version of repulse monkey.


   By Harry Milner (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 12:17 am: Edit Post

Sun Lu Tang's original form has swinging kicks and thrust kicks, no jump kicks and Repulse the Monkey in the competition form is done in three directions where as in the original form it is repeated four times as you move laterally on a diagnol, increasing the effectiveness of the combative technique 100 fold.


   By Sheilah Gamble (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 08:13 pm: Edit Post

I have done the Tai Chi for arthritis, the first 12 movements, the reverse and the next nine movements. I have a simple question which was not answered during the course......What is the difference between brush knee and repulse monkey? Is repulse monkey the sequence of brush knee in two or more directions or is there a difference in the actual movement????


   By Harry Milner (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, August 20, 2004 - 10:23 pm: Edit Post

The Difference comes in its combative applications.


   By John Shane Crilly on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 12:29 am: Edit Post

Hi Sheila,
we may have taken the same workshop. did you learn the form in Vancouver?

Basically you're right. The thing is that generally, in taiji, repulse monkey is a retreating type move. you back up while striking or performing chin na type of move. this is the case in the traditional set of sun lu tang. However in the 73 form it is more or less the same move but in three different directions. the flavor of retreat is diminished though the move doesn't really change. The retreat that takes place in the competition set (73) actually comes from sun style xing yi.


   By Sheilah Gamble (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, August 21, 2004 - 06:13 am: Edit Post

Hi John,

Thanks for that, it really helps!

No, we didn't do the same workshop. I did mine in Victoria Australia!

Small world isn't it!


   By Tomo (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 04:14 pm: Edit Post

I think practicing the techniques both right- and left-style is a good way of training one's coordination. Look at the Wing Chun and Karate people - they practice both sides to be effective, not only the dominant side of the body. Must admit I prefer Sun 73 over the old set, but I do practice both of them. Since the competition routine is performed in a more elongated manner, it stretches the limbs better and is more expressive. On the other hand, the smaller movements of the old set is better for self defence (but many Sun-stylists claim that this is not a style for fighting, but for improving one's character, correct me if I am wrong).

Most traditional forms focus on right-style, which brings me to the inevitable question: what about the left-handed people? Do they have to practice mirror-image, or just adapt? :-)


   By Harry Milner (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:22 pm: Edit Post

Sun style is a very effective fighting art...few can teach the combative applications, of course Sun style as well as all Martial Arts are used for improving one's character.