Archive through August 06, 2004

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Punching and lifting the heel: Archive through August 06, 2004
   By Karl (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 02:42 pm: Edit Post

Hi Tim,

is it ok, to lift the heel of the back leg while punching in Tai Chi or other internal arts? I dont speak about forms. My question is about punching in free fighting.

Karl


   By Tim on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 03:36 am: Edit Post

Karl,
It is ok to lift the rear heel when punching. As a matter of fact, all of the forward blows in the Sun styule of Taijiquan are done with the rear heel lifted.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 08:38 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,
What is the reasoning for lifting the rear heel in Sun style? I am a Yang and Chen Pan Ling stylist.

Thanks for your time.


   By Brian Kennedy on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit Post

According to the old time western boxers, raising the heel avoids "bucket foot".
"Bucket foot" is when you move like you got your foot stuck in the rinse bucket.

Brian King (no relation to Don King)


   By Tim on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 06:45 pm: Edit Post

Sleepydragon,
Lifting the rear heel (muck like boxing punches as Brian pointed out) allows you to transfer the weight of your hips and torso into your striking hand.

Also, since your rear foot is released from weight, it is easy to make a follow step with the rear foot so you can immediately move forward again (the same as the constant forward pressure concept of Xingyiquan).


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 02:27 pm: Edit Post

Personally, I don't think you can get very much (if any) leg strength or body weight behind a straight punch unless you place your weight on the front foot and lift your rear heel. Body weight movement and lifting the rear heel is done in every sport that requires the generation of upper body power explosivley.

I list the following sports as examples, hitting and throwing a baseball (hitting a baseball is perhaps the closest thing to punching as you can get in a non-combat sport and throwing a fastball is very similar to an iron palm slap), hitting a golf ball, throwing a football, javelin throwing, ect.

In all these sports the body weight shift and leg drive is present, they add this to the hip twist for maximum power, baseball pitching even has the body drop some chinese arts use. Because all human beings are basically structurally identical, the basics of power generation are about the same no matter what physical activity uou do and punching is no exception to the rules of physics


   By Shane on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 01:39 pm: Edit Post

Mont- do you ever wonder why boxing gloves were invented?


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 10:00 pm: Edit Post

Boxing gloves were invented for two things:

To protect the fighter's hands.

And back when bare-knuckle fighting was popular in europe, famous fighters taught self-defense to gentlemen. To encourage more gentlemen to train, they started using gloves to keep from damaging faces during practice.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 01:26 pm: Edit Post

I almost forgot. Another reason boxing gloves were invented was to allow people who lack real punching power to fight and have a chance at beating people with real punching power. I read a whole book on the subject of bare-knuckle fighting once.

There are modern true bare-knuckle boxing fights in some countries including this (not always legal) and to paraphrase a bare-knuckle fighter who lost the first fight he used gloves in (I forget the exact quote), "I was used to being able to win through the damage I could inflict on my opponent in the first 30-60 seconds of the fight, however, the gloves protected him enough so that he was still standing after 2 two minutes. He beat me because I lacked the conditioning to chase him around for so long."

I watched the Oscar De la Hoya-Shane Mosley fight on PPV last year. Sure, Oscar hit Shane quite a bit but then again, Oscar can't punch worth a and Shane was fine despite being hit quite a bit. With the few punches he hit Oscar with (Shane didn't fight nearly as well as usual for some reason) he hurt him. That's why the judges gave the fight to Mosley.

Ah, I wish championship fights (Yes, I know the fight above wasn't a championship fight) would go 15 rounds again (or more). Anyway, gloves help weak punchers who can hop around the ring beat people who could KO with one or two punches without gloves.


   By Meynard on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 01:49 pm: Edit Post

De La Hoyas punches have plenty of power.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 03:29 pm: Edit Post

I hope no one of De La Hoyas calibre (even on a bad day; with or without gloves) ever hits me ... but then again its easy to watch and criticize when you're not the one sweating, bleeding and fighting,

The best fighter can have a bad day; the worse fighter can have a good day.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 03:37 pm: Edit Post

De La Hoya hasn't fought many good opponents. Some of his wins have been questionable.

Also, I should rephrase "Oscar can't punch worth a " he could punch fairly hard when he was in a much lower weight division.

As he has moved up, it has become evident that the weight gains haven't helped much in his punching power, and because of the naturally larger bone structers of his heavier opponents and their natural strength advantage, his punches lack the effectiveness on them that they had on his lighter opponents.

Face it, Oscar is a pretty boy who has carefully picked his fights and has had a career similar to that of Sugar Ray Leonard (I don't like him either because of a few questionable wins and his lack of punching power against good fighters).

I think Oscar would be eaten alive in a street fight. Take off the gloves and we'll see who can really hit hard or not.


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post

Too bad De la Hoya is getting old. If he would fight for another 5 years, I'd become a boxer and fight him myself. (I'm only 16 so there is no possible way to get a pro boxing license unless we fought in Mexico or something) Anyway, I'm not afraid of fighting anyone except maybe Bob Sapp (I'll wait till i'm 25 or 30 to fight someone like him), although I do prefer to avoid violence whenever possible. :-)


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 04:02 pm: Edit Post

Michael, I posted after you before reading your comment. I agree, it is easy to talk about people when your not in the ring. I respect anyone who is brave enough to climb in the ring to box, kickbox, wrestle, whatever. I may not think they are much of a fighter and could be crushed in a street fight but thats my opinion, I still respect them.

Anyway, if I'm gonna get punched by de la hoya or anyone else, I'm sure as hell gonna fight back and knock him on his ass.


   By Bruce Leroy on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 07:47 pm: Edit Post

I knew you were just a kid! ha ha ha


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 09:26 am: Edit Post

I'm 16, 6 feet tall, 175 lbs. I've been doing martial arts for 5 years very seriously. I wouldn't consider myself a "kid". I've forgotten more about martial arts then most "masters" know.


   By Bob #2 on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 11:55 am: Edit Post

Junior, make no mistake about it- at 16 even at 8 feet tall, you're a kid.

and the way you post and the idears you have- you're a kid- but you sound like a good kid on the right track. (When you're a man- you'll know the difference and wont make statements like that any more).


   By Michael Andre Babin on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:53 pm: Edit Post

We were all sixteen once and I'm glad that I can't be reminded of some of the grand statements that I made at that age.

Was it Mark Twain who wrote "When I was fifteen, I thought my father was the stupidest man that I had even met. But by the time I turned twenty, I was amazed at how smart he had become in only five years."


   By Bruce Leroy on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:06 pm: Edit Post

"I've forgotten more about martial arts then most "masters" know."

That's funny!


   By Mont F. Cessna Jr. on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 04:55 pm: Edit Post

I pretty sure if I lived in CA and could go to Tim's school I'd be a lot more humble. I've become kinda disillusioned with most martial art schools and instructors in the Harrisburg area (and probably the world). I realized last year after reading some of Bruce Lee's books the sillyness of many martial arts, those who teach them, and (unknowingly) those who practice them.

This message board is a place where I can engage in logical (mostly), intelligent discussions on martial arts with people who know what they are talking about. Thanks guys for putting up with my loud mouth so kindly and yes, I'm still gonna post 2x as often as all of you :-)