A Study of Taijiquan by Sun Lutang ... some more questions.

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : A Study of Taijiquan by Sun Lutang ... some more questions.
   By Krisno (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 03:52 am: Edit Post

I've just bought this great book from Amazon.com and am busily devouring it.
Thank you very much for making the translation available Tim!
I have a question though on page 70 of my book, at chapter one (A Study of Wu Ji) you've written : "The Eight Trigrams form the woof while the Five Elements form the warp of the Art."

Is that a publishing typo? What does it mean?
I'm basically conversant with the Eight Trigrams and the Five Elements from the Yi Jing.

In addition, you have a footnote on page 98, chapter 19 that the Strum Lute posture was replaced by the ward off, roll back and press movements preceding the Lazily Tying Back the Clothes sequence.
I'm not familiar with Sun style, so please excuse my ignorance but isn't the sequence of Lazily Tying Back the Clothes exactly that (ward off, roll back and press)?

Thank you so much!


   By Tim on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 04:14 pm: Edit Post

Woof and warp refer to the horizontal and vertical threads that combine to make up a unified fabric (look in the dictionary).

In the Sun form the "Lazily Tying Back the Clothes" movement is a high, outside roll back followed by a single hand push, as opposed to warding off, rolling back and pressing up the centerline of the body (that prededes the Lazily Tying Back the Clothes movement in the Sun form).

   By Krisno (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 08:23 am: Edit Post

Thanks Tim for the clarification! I was trying for ages to work out what it meant, being absolutely sure that it was a mistake ... hehe. It just goes to show, I'll check the dictionary first if the situation ever arises again.
I also purchased Dan Millers and Albert Liu's translation of Sun Lutang on Xing Yi, (which you edited?). Master Sun Lutang was a fascinating man.


   By Steele on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 10:32 pm: Edit Post

Tim (and anyone else who is versed in Sun style),

When studying Sun Lutang's Taijiquan book (great translation and commentary, Tim, your translator's foreword is one of the best breakdowns of the form anywhere), it is clear that the form has evolved and changed since the book was first published.

As you point out, the newer version adds a ward-off/rollback/press sequence but there are others:

1. After the first open-close/brush knee left/strum lute, the form (as popularly practiced today) goes into a series of advance cross step joint locks (don't know the Chinese name for the move), then an advance-step-parry punch. Yet the form as described in the book goes directly from strum lute into the punch.

2. This same series of advance cross stepping joint locks follows the turn-kick and precedes the stamp step strike in the modern form, yet the book again doesn't feature the moves.

3. In the modern version, the pass through back three times sequence includes a xingyi stepping double (palmup) fist strike, a lan zha yi (eye strike), then ward-off/rollback/press goes into Lazy Tying Clothes. In the book, Sun goes directly into Lazy.

4. The single whip as most practice it is relaxed, palms arcing just past shoulders to the sides, and the stance is similarly relaxed. But as shown the book is wide as possible ("extend the hands as far as they will go"), with a wide stance specifying open hips.

Who is responsible for the various changes? Sun Lutang himself or his disciples (Sun Jianyun)?

One last question in addition. Is there a video clip anywhere of the Sun style push hands? It's very difficult to figure it out from drawings.

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