I, for one, can agree there IS some sense (wisdom?) in what you say, Unwise.
Those who rely strictly on (western) "science" for their world view often overlook phenomena which cannot (yet) be explained... but one cannot deny that such phenomena exist - whatever the effect or utility of such.
But... yure right... want to work on force "from a distance"... guns work really well... QED - it's physics, dude.

BTW... in China, I have personally seen Shaolin monks "project" energy, with interesting results... but I remain VERY skeptical as to what I saw and how it was achieved. Trikz???

Understanding the risk of being ridiculed in an open forum like this, would you please share an example of the "few weird small things" that your acquaintance performs. I am sincerely curious and interested. The only thing I would point out is that this has absolutely nothing to do with martial arts. And I don't believe the general attitude on this board concerning this subject is necessarily arrogance, it's apathy.

Please share your experiences.

I think that anyone who has been involved in the internal martial arts has witnessed or experienced "a few weird events".

I have witnessed stuff that I still can't explain fully; but that doesn't mean that I am willing to suspend my common-sense and/or try to fool my students into believing that I have extraordinary martial and healing powers by using sleight-of-hand skills.

I agree that it is important to keep an open-mind but I also would have more respect for those who claim such esoteric skills if they could demonstrate them on non-compliant subjects with objective observors to record the event.

Isn't that the best part of western science, that it asks us to question everything and not to assume that something is true simply because we want to believe it is so?

party tricks which are useless in a fight... exactly.

Now, let's discuss something related to MARTIAL ARTS and save the chi shooting party tricks for Mr. Bozo's discussion board.

Shane

Unwise,
I completely agree with you about the necessity (and difficulty) of maintaining an open mind.

Unlike Michael, I've never seen anything I couldn't explain (except maybe when David Blain eats a quarter. Or those flying Euro-clowns in Cirque Du Soleil). The point is there are plenty of things we see we might not understand, but they can invariably be explained with the known laws of physics (at least so far).

If your friend wants to pick up some extra money, he should demonstrate his few weird small things on the Amazing Randy. It would be worth a million dollars.

Tim,

the known laws of physics do not explain the very subject matter physics strives to explain. They contradict themselves when applied. This is the biggest problem facing modern physicists. Laws which hold in one setting defy themselves in another. The most well known being relativity as compared to quantum theory. I am not a physicist (I am a scientist). My particular field of science (which I'm not going to go into) involves well accepted phenomenon which contradict what most people believe to be hard and fast rules of physics. An example being there are cause-effect potentiality firings in neurons in the human brain which are widely accepted in the scientific community as not obeying laws we would normally ascribe to time! Our brains can time travel! It is obviously very complicated but our laws of physics fall down in many areas. There are many good books (and even audio-visual presentations) summarising the state of knowledge of physics and its incredible shortcomings in even coming close to a theory or set of formulae which hold across the universe instead of in one isolated closed environment.
Any physicist will tell you the current state of physics cannot explain our universe and is not coming close to such a goal presently.
Laws of physics are not what people believe them to be either. Most people take what they learn in school as the state of physics! e.g. Are Newton's laws universal? School student answers 'yes'. Physicist answers 'NO!'. To apply the point to "weird stuff" as discussed... physics states it is 100% possible for a human being to walk entirely through a wall without compromising the wall or the human body. This is well accepted in physics. It can be a fascinating field that can assist a great deal in opening one's mind.
The person I have observed has no interest in convincing anyone of anything. He openly admits there is nothing magical or special or anything else, they are all just abilities humans have...and they are not martial arts and they are useless in a fight. My personal belief based on experience is that they are not sleight of hand...but they are a useless party trick. Just like the guy who sucks milk up his nose and sprays it out his eyes - not sleight of hand but yes a useless trick.
Finally, Tim, I am shocked that someone such as yourself who obviously must have quite high an interest and knowledge of taichi would say "I've never seen anything I couldn't explain". Do you have a mirror? I hope these were ill thought words that don't convey what you meant.

All,

Unfortunatley, everyone becomes an expert on what they have not studied and our "common-sense" knowledge becomes such an unfounded, warped ridiculous set of constructs that we delude ourselves. This is my fault here. I have not studied such things as no touch nor do I plan to. I do not know about these things. I am unwise to enter into the discussion because I, as I believe most others on this thread have openly admitted, know nothing of these things. That is not to say we know they do not/cannot exist. We should apply empiricism, if we want to proceed in that manner, and admit we do not know.

Chad,

Sorry, I am not going into the weird things I have seen...but seek and ye shall find. Do question as all above say...the world is full of charlatans and people looking to build their ego. There are efforts to delude us everywhere we look. Such as believing we have some inate 'common-sense' instead of a learned, conditioned way of applying rigid contructs to a fluid world in order to stroke our egos into thinking we understand.
I also apologise if anyone takes what I say as accusing individuals of arrogance (or even apathy). I accuse humans of this, including myself. After all, I would not have entered into this thread or any other like thread if I too wasn't guilty of being arrogant with my knowledge. It is a human condition we must be wary of, but I do not escape it.
I will now apply my taichi tactics and recognise I have been lured into an overextension and must return to my centre to preserve the integrity of my structure.

I won't pretend to understand the theories and controversies in modern science and physics beyond saying that, in my limited reading, the various experts seem to agree about as much as the various taiji experts... .

On the other hand, when you look in the mirror what you see is all that you have to work with on a day-to-day basis and applying common-sense, flawed though that may be, is all we really have to work with in practical terms.

My only problem with western science is that it seems to persist in trying to understand the universe by dissecting and examining its various aspects in relative isolation.

As to weird experiences in the martial arts, one that many have probably experienced is seeing an attacking hand come at you in apparent slow-motion and feeling as if you had all the time in the world to respond even though those around you said that the actual event had taken place in a moment,

I have experienced this as have many police and military that I have talked to and I have heard a variety of explanations, some "scientific", some "esoteric", but none of these are truly satisfying.

It is also true that if you can only watch the approaching fist or bullet in slow-mtion and can't do anything about it, such experiences are likely to be unpleasant at best. (Or, useful only if you are applying for a stunt job in the next re-make of the Matrix movie.

Experts of ignorance,
We were born with an open mind. It's "like a parachute". Maybe unconventional forces that we call "paranormal" will appear into our existence and earn the right to be full-fledged, "normal". But my martial strategy is in the battle-tested crucible of knowledge. I don't delude myself in training otherwise.
A baby is the model of ignorance. To a baby, all things precede explanation. By common sense, a baby learns and learns to construct ideas - even ridiculous ideas like no-touch. But the existence of the fictional idea does not imply the existence of the object of the idea.
So science applies its methods.
If you say there is something better than science at explaining our environment, then bring it on. Unwise is tantamount to folly and rejecting knowledge. You can not exist apart from reality.

Give poeple wonder, mystery, and fear and you have the perfect construct of belief. Give them tools to practically understand the world, demystify myth, and conquer their fears and many will still scream "Give me belief for life is to real for me!"

"Give poeple wonder, mystery, and fear and you have the perfect construct of belief."

Your first sentence is exactly why life is worth living, its what makes us human. Besides,who will demystify the demystified myth?

The myth you are living is always the one you are unaware of. Love old Joey boy!

M.A.B. Off the track somewhat. Massad Ayoob coined a term to describe the effect you mentioned. Interesting that it seems to happen generally to people who had prepared for the types of high stress situations where this effect may occur. It seems to never happen to people who had never anticipated the situation occuring to them (knife attack, shot at, etc.)

unwise,
I'm talking about martial arts. I'll leave quantum physics to physicists. Unless I shrink to the size of a subatomic particle and have to wrestle with a gluon, Newtonian physics will explain my techniques just fine.

It is because I understand Taijiquan and related arts that I have never seen anything in the martial arts that I couldn't explain. Remember, I'm not talking about the mysteries of creation or the secrets of the universe, or "weird things" that people allude to then refuse to explain. I'm only talking about martial arts.

APB Belief is not what makes us human it is our enslavement. Proof is what makes us truely Human.

western science looks into minute detail of the world . while eastern science looks at a larger view. the small reflects the big and the other way round but if you stick to only one side of the argument you will never see the truth only your own version of it.

western science looks into minute detail of the world . while eastern science looks at a larger view. the small reflects the big and the other way round but if you stick to only one side of the argument you will never see the truth only your own version of it. In western science we understand that food, water , air gives us energy for life that these energies are broken down stored, restored. used for a positive process and then for a negative process (Yin and Yang)such as ATP oxidisation starting cross bridge cycle then ATP binding to myosin which stops the cross bridge cycle. We are told that people with a good cardivascular system lead longer more healthy lives but at the same time research conducted on indivudual in high aerobic sports show an increased risk of damage or disease to the liver, kidneys and gut. so how can we exercise the lungs and heart without drawing blood away from the liver, kidneys and gut Chi gung which has already been invented for the self same reason.

Tim (and possibly others),
I am very interested in your explanation of a simple concept in taichi if you would be willing. I am aware of a couple of hypotheses, but I also personally find them inadequate. Taking a stance (aligned properly and physically 'sunken') project your mind upward and place your consciousness high in your head and have an opponent push you over. Repeat but sink your mind and use your mind intent to root. I am sure you know what I am talking about with this exercise. Make sure physically your stance is the same (I know people try to explain this as maybe the stance changes with the mind intent). I am sure with no change of stance...no change of physical alignment the difference is huge as to how much force it takes one to push you over. How do you, personally, account for this phenomenon?

This demonstration was first popularized by Koichi Tohei of Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido fame.

Untrained people almost invariably relax downward more when they put their intent lower, resulting in a more stable stance.

Advanced practitioners will be just as stable no matter where they put their intent, as long as the person applying force to them uses the same amount of force at the same angle.

Unwise, Tim, all China bashers,

In my favorite sport, many good athletes have a "sunken" stance while they are playing. I think they just learned and discovered about it by training a lot.
On the the other hand IMA has the most sophisticated system of developing such skills.
By the way, as to China-bashing: I tried western boxing with a professionally trained boxer, and while he probably had all the skills, he came short of explaining important principles because he lacked the concepts. I think that the chinese arts have a very scientific approach, much more so than what I have seen in the western arts. I saw some medieval sword fighting manuals, which were only a collection of fighting tricks, while their chinese counterparts contain much higher level principles about fighting. I think the chinese culture should be given credit for helping raise MA to the level it has today - keeping in mind that a good theory does not make you a good fighter by default.
Coming back to the mystic part of MA: for the physical phenomenons I do expect physical explanations a la Newton. But when it comes to psychological phenomenons, like being able to make your opponent afraid, you'd have to do take a lot of guesses to come up with a "scientific" explanation. And since the mindset and all its mysteries are so important in a real fight, MA cannot be 100% scientific (at least for the moment). I mean, if you want to talk about it at all, you have to leave the grounds of proven scientific facts. Also, demystification is *boring*.

Harold,

You have an interesting take on the MA. You prefer the Chinese martial arts because of their "very scientific approach," then you state that if you want to talk about MA at all, "you have to leave the grounds of proven scientific facts."

I'm in total agreement that the Chinese have very sopisticated methods of developing high level skills, but other cultures have some smart martial artists as well.

Have you ever read Jack Dempsy's book "Championship Fighting," you might be surprised by the level of sophistication.

You might be confusing "China bashing" with having an open mind.

Harold,
Your last thought fits a paraphrase of the above quote by Iron Bastard: ".... Give them tools to practically understand the world, demystify myth, and conquer their fears and many will..." get bored or pissed off and walk away.