Archive through December 18, 2004

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Yang Family Hidden Form?: Archive through December 18, 2004
   By Tim on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 06:44 pm: Edit Post

No one develops fighting ability by standing practice alone (that's like saying you can be a great boxer if you just jump rope ). Yi Quan has standing as it's core practice, but the art also includes movement training, stepping training, breath training, methods of issuing force training, "push hands" training and free fighting.

   By Rick Matz on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

A couple of informative YiQuan websites:

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

   By Rick Matz on Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:07 pm: Edit Post

A couple of informative websites:

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

   By Tom G. on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit Post

Hi everyone. I practice the Michuan system mentioned in the original post. It could be Yang Lu Chan's "personal" form, but it also might not be. Maybe he had several. In my mind it doesn't really matter. I am sure Master Wang didn't invent it, he certainly learned it from Zhang. It's basically impossible to establish the Yang Jian Hou--->Zhang QinLin connection, but what matters in the end is that it works. Not saying that it's better than anything else, but it does indeed work (not just in tuishou, but in full-contact sanshou/freefighting)

The Michuan is a cool system. It really looks unlike all the other taiji that I've seen before, which isn't really too much (in person), and I find it to be much more "obvious" in its martial nature than the Cheng Man Ching or Yang Cheng Fu forms. My teacher Scott Rodell was a disciple of Wang Yen Nian and teaches the Michuan in Washington DC, though usually you learn the CMC stuff first (please. No CMC comments. Scott can fight, though of course you don't have to believe me).

It's the first time I've been here (I think. hmmmm). Cool forum!

   By Another Mike on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 07:48 pm: Edit Post

From what I've been able to gather, all of the Yangs had different forms. Yang Shao-hou's form is different from Ch'eng-fu's, which is different from the Chien-hou form that the Michuan people do. Within the Wu family that I am familiar with the same holds true, the individual teacher's forms all vary, at least slightly, even within the same generation.
I've been told that it has more to do with body type and which applications the teachers prefer to emphasize in their forms than anything else.

   By stan on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 03:02 pm: Edit Post


Siempre pa'lante....
Is it possible fo rus to see "variations on a theme" expressed differently by distinct bodies? (read body type, degree of athleticity, etc)?
Shaohu had one variant of form, Chengfu another, Jianhou, Jianquan, etc., and each person sees different elements that make the form unique. It appears that the individual(s) uniqueness solidifies form. No secret.

   By Igor (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 03:43 pm: Edit Post

Yesterday I recived the two books of Wang Yen Nien. The style is similar to the Yang Taijiquan but is diferent. It seems very effective for combat. I dont understand why Wang Yen Nien posture is not erect during practice (he has a hunch)?
I find that Yang Shou Hou knows the Secret form too, but not Yang Cheng Fu. From Yang Shou Hou lerned the secret form Hou Chi Kwang, who trasmited it to Raymond Cooper (Nganga Mfundishi Tolo-Naa).
Everybody knows if the forms of Raymond Cooper is the same of Wang Yen Nien or not?

   By nANCY pANCY on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 10:26 am: Edit Post

Secrets, secrets, secrets I love secrets. Mystery ohhh yess, only some old chinese guy with scoliosis must be the true master of combat as only he has the secret...

He had a hunch because he didn't listen to momma and stand up straight.

If he had a real hunch he'd stand up straight. But buy both of his books.

   By Dragonprawn on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit Post


There is an article in the latest issue of Tai Chi magazine (Wayfarer Publications) that is part of a series on TCC history. I think it addresses some of your concerns.

   By Al (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, April 18, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit Post

That article is intellectually dishonest. It argues that "no one knows for sure about this and that" and then says, "but if we assume this, then we can conclude that".

Soon the assumptions of the article reach conclusions that are then treated as fact.

The 3 Parts are pure puffery and offer nothing conclusive. In the end, you are left with a myriad of convulted speculation. Its pure intellectual masturbation.

Reading the piece is like going in circles: You end up right where you started from.

   By Lin Ma Ke (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 02:11 am: Edit Post

When I look at Master Wang's position during
practise it never seemed hunched-his rounded
shoulders are the result of a relaxed chest.
allowing the chi to gather in the Dantien.
It is true that if one goes too far, then the
back can appear hunched.

   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 09:22 pm: Edit Post

Let us get the hunchbacks together so they can form the true backbone of true taijiquan.

ni hao ma

   By Salakala (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 06:44 am: Edit Post

here's the michuan form, have a look:

   By C.Wagner on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:49 am: Edit Post

the "secret" Yang form that was taught by Prof. Hou Chi Kwan and Master Wang Yen Nien is essentially the same form ( depending on who you ask). subtle variations can be attributed to the emphasis of different teachers and students. one difference is the height of certain stances. Prof. Hou Chi Kwan's version uses a standing posture called "ting" ( referrence to 3 legged vessel) as opossed to Master Wang Yen Nien's version which uses a "cat" stance ( with more weight/pressure on front foot than in Shaolin). there are many other slight variations but the essesence and principles are the same. it is interesting to see how close the forms are even though they are of of slightly different lineages.

   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 02:00 pm: Edit Post

The form that I learnt from Hou Chi Kwan was different (Shaohou variation?) but the Yang style essence was there. I never considered it secret but over time I realized that each person/s body (frame), degree of physical fitness, etc impacts the extrenal form.
I have stayed with Chengfu's form as I find it fits me better than anyother variation.

   By C.Wagner on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:58 am: Edit Post

secret is just a word. many names are mental exercises for students. it may have many different meanings. if you know something it is no longer secret. i have recently developed a greater appreciation for the Yang Chen Fu version. it is practiced by so many people and has a positive impact on them. i prefer the Shao Hou variation due to its attention to martial principle. Shao Hou taught another "secret" Yang form called "lao" (old) Yang , it is the small frame, usage form.

   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:15 pm: Edit Post

Yang Jian Hou and Yang Shou Hou only practiced the original Small Frame of Yang Lu Chan but YJH developed a Middle Frame to help students get better / easier access the Small. The Large did not exist at that stage as a form, it became so with Yang Cheng Fu by removing the heavy stepping, the fajin and the energetic circles from the Middle Frame. The forms did not get these names until much later as means to differentiate between them. In the small the gestures are small and internal and the speed is fast, in the Large the gestures are large and the pace is slow, in the middle the pace is variable and the gestures are large but the circles internalise it to small hence it is a transition form between small and large and is not middle / medium sized as some say. This is what was conveyed to me by Tian Yin Jia when he was in the UK in September 2004. Tian Yin Jia's father was Tian Zhao Lin who was actually an adopted son of Yang Jian Hou.

For clips of all three go to files section and for history go to


   By Richard dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 03, 2004 - 07:19 pm: Edit Post

Sorry that was the posting address, the group URL should read


   By C.Wagner on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:50 pm: Edit Post

what Yang Jian Hou and Yang Shou Hou studied and praticed is a question that can only be answered by them. they are both dead, so we can only go by the exsitance of the forms and the ideas and opinions of the practicioners of the respective lineage. there are subtle and obvious differences in approach, attibuted to different practicioners background, experience and personal emphasis. both taught a long form consisting of three parts. the small frame form is said to be a distillation of the longer form and was the basis for the original Wu style form. from what i have seen and learned the speed and principles in all of the forms are the same.
ps. correction - in Master Wang Yen Nien's version the "cat stance" back foot is weighted and the other is empty.

   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 10:54 am: Edit Post

What rubish. Tian Zhao Lin was adopted son to Yang Jian Hou and brother and constant companion to Yang Shou Hou. Are you really trying to tell me that his son would not be conveying what they did or making it up!! He was very clear to me that he has changed nothing.