Archive through December 31, 2004

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Yang Family Hidden Form?: Archive through December 31, 2004
   By Edward Hines on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 11:50 am: Edit Post

Richard,

If Yang taiji forms didn't exist before Cheng-fu how is it that YCF's form follows the same rhythm as Chen Style? I mention this because you state elsewhere that Chen style is not Taiji, that it's external rather than 'energetic'. Why should YCF choose Chen as a template for his form?

Since you say that YLC studied in the Chen Village, but what he did was not Chen style where did he learn whatever he learned to make what he did 'energetic'?

On your website you have videos of people falling over for no apparent reason and throwing themselves into mats for no apparent reason. Is this some kind of cooperative sensitivity training or something that you can do at will on people who aren't your students?

Dou practise lots of fighting and get blood on your vest and break bones? as Chang Yiu-Chun describes the interview you posted here? How does getting battered and bloody have to do with 'energetics'? Or was it intense massage to stimulate qi flow?

best wishes

Edward Hines


   By Tim on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 01:35 pm: Edit Post

Check out one of Ed's excellent articles at:

http://www.palmchange.com/V3/promotion.php


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 07:01 pm: Edit Post

>If Yang taiji forms didn't exist before Cheng-fu >how is it that YCF's form follows the same rhythm >as Chen Style?

My presumption is that Chen changed and simplified and commercialised the same as Yang did. But it is just my presumption, though there is much anecdotal evidence that these changes started with Fa-Ke. It also depends on your definition of a form, they were not the same, not fixed like the modern forms. In a way more like the attitude taken in Bagau as in follow the rules and sequence to learn then having learned the basics you then follow you intent and flow, and opponent :o)) This is all new to me also, I still follow forms. Tian teaches a large frame which is fixed, a middle frame which is fixed in major move as in the large but speed, intensity and application vary individually and then the small, which is what this discussion is about, he has taught no one as he says no one is ready yet, even his son and primary student. Samples of all 3 forms are on the website.

>I mention this because you state elsewhere that >Chen style is not Taiji,

Chen style was called Tai-Chi in two stages Fa-ke in Beijing in order to compete for custom and Chen Village in the late 40's in order to claim a slice of the action. They were late comers to the name. In the beginning it was only refering externally to Yang Lu Chan and neither he nor his sons used the name, it was only used by outsiders to refer to them. Only post Cheng Fu did the family start to use the name and then the other families followed suit.

>that it's external >rather than 'energetic'.

I stand by that.

>Why should YCF choose Chen as a template for his form?

Wrong way round, if you refer to Chen *public* forms

>Since you say that YLC studied in the Chen >Village, but what he did was not Chen style where >did he learn whatever he learned to make what he >did 'energetic'?

Two possible explanation in my mind 1/ Some Chen was energetic and that was either lost or is now being very well hidden. 2/ Yang only used the physical shaolin type work of Chen and modified it with Daoist Chi-Kung energetic techniques. Both are possible and both have their proponents, but then again there may be yet another explanation. Tian says he just doesn't know but he says the same as me regarding their characteristics.

>On your website you have videos of people falling >over for no apparent reason and throwing >themselves into mats for no apparent reason. Is >this some kind of cooperative sensitivity >training or something that you can do at will on >people who aren't your students?

The fact that you don't understand what is going on or the limitations of this work and the difference between training and real, and the old chestnuts you are recycling, shows a lot for your understanding of the art.

>Do you practise lots of fighting and get blood on >your vest and break bones? as Chang Yiu-Chun >describes the interview you posted here? How does >getting battered and bloody have to do with >'energetics'? Or was it intense massage to >stimulate qi flow?

There have always been two forms of training depending on level and also the crossover period, both are no longer trained or used with the same level of intensity. The same as in the USA you no longer have street cowboy gun duels but people still carry guns. Times change.


   By Edward Hines on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 08:14 am: Edit Post

'The fact that you don't understand what is going on or the limitations of this work and the difference between training and real, and the old chestnuts you are recycling, shows a lot for your understanding of the art. '

The reason I asked the question is because I think you have a different understanding of what is going on. You have kindly confirmed this, without actually answering the question can you do this stuff to someone who is not your student?

It's something you consider sufficiently important to post several examples of on your website, yet you don't offer any explanation or context that would prevent people like me, and presumably the vast majority of visitors to your site from misinterpreting the videos.

Since you like discussion perhaps you could go some way to explain the difference in understanding to me.

What training benefits are you or the others getting?

'same as in the USA you no longer have street cowboy gun duels but people still carry guns.Times change.'

In 2002 there were 12,129 firearm related homicides. Admittedly there were probably very few 'high noon type' duels in those 12000. the majority of killings then and now were probably at very close range, often with one or more of the parties being unarmed or unaware. I think most gun training in the US reflects this.

Of course if you think cowboy films reflect the reality of 19th century gunfights then perhaps you also think 'Tiger and Dragon' reflect the reality of pre Cheng-fu Taiji?

'There have always been two forms of training depending on level and also the crossover period, both are no longer trained or used with the same level of intensity.'

In training in Taiji and other related arts I have bled, been bruised, had joints dislocated and had bones cracked this didn't happen to me every session but minor injuries and a bit of bood are pretty common in all the places I 've been where people trained to develop fighting skill.
I no longer train this way very often. It hurts too much, I'm more ineterested in feeling good these days than being the best figher I can be.I respect people who are willing to put that kind of intensity into their training and I still know still plenty out there.

Times haven't changed that much.

happy new year

Edward


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 08:50 am: Edit Post

Interestingly I have been having conversations with Richard Johnson recently on another list who is a US Chen stylist out of Fa-Ke's line and he has a very good understanding of energetic work and says it is part of his training. So we have the interesting prospect of either that Fa-Ke had part of the work that Yang Lu Chan got from the Chens (Chen IMO was always a very broad church of teachings) or that he came under the same influences in Beijing that had happened to Lu Chan and went through the same or similar adaption processes that he had. Interesting possibilities.

Regarding the work in the clips, it is all very simple, it is training. The other clips show meditations, forms, exercises, pushing hands etc and they are all training as well, so why should this be any different? If it is used in reality it is very different, it has to be visible to be trained, in reality situations the last thing you want is for it to be visible otherwise your opponents natural defences kick in. Exactly the same as if I say "I am now going to hit you with a straight punch to the nose" makes it easy to defend against, so you also have natural energetic defence mechanisms if you know it is going to happen. This is why you think it always requires co-operation, and you are right, but subtly different to what you mean. The co-operation is to make your energy available for manipulation and training. It is the same as you do in physical training and the same as you do in mind training, it is part of the student / learning process in all aspects of life, so why should it be different with this. In reality it is very very rarely use in isolation and usually only as a destabalising or shock technique within a physical aplication.

It is just a classic western missunderstanding, you accept your body needs to be trained, in internal terms for relaxation and open structure (song), you accept that your mind needs training through Zhang Zhuang or similar techniques, but you do not accept that your energetic state needs to be trained. For me that is weird, yi li chi - mind body spirit, a three legged stool unbalance one and you don't function correctly.


   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:56 pm: Edit Post

Richard

If even what you say is true, and one goes to the present Yang style lineage site page, they only list Yang family members. Many people did study with Jianhou, Chengfu, etc and they rightfully used their own version of that chart so their name is associated with that Yang member.
Again, Zheng Manqing studied with Chengfu and the people who are associated with him have added a bunch of people with no association just because of the 'alleged' status.

What we see in modern martial arts (if it can be called that) is people IMPROVING upon a template (i.e. Chen style) and having THEIR OWN NAME (be it Yang, Wu (both) Sun, Fu, etc) associated with it, as opposed to living off someone else's.
As you see, many students were far more openminded and 'allegedly smarter' (just a guess)
than than the masters.
Instead of rocking someone elses boat, they built their own and braved the seas on their own. That is a true master. I may not agree with Zheng Manqing's style but he is to be applauded for his singlehanded popularity of taijiquan along with the supposedly crazy nature of some other taijiquan styles, real or imaginery like tai chi chih. They should be respected!

I did not mean to make it so simple!


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 02:31 pm: Edit Post

What is "the present Yang style lineage site page" ?

Regarding "Zheng Manqing's style" people do what they want and call it what they want, per usual it is buyer beware! If you follow the thread you will see that I posted in response to pre Cheng Fu secret forms and provided new information that has only come into the public arena in the last four months. This information comes from the son of the adopted son of Yang Jian Hou, 2nd generation gatekeeper to the Yang Family knowledge, and adopted brother to the third generation of Yang Shou Hou and Yang Cheng Fu. Now anyone with any wish to understang Yang family style and history should be very interested in this knowledge, which shoots down in flames most of the other claptrap of all these secret forms and transmissions of pre-Cheng Fu that are being marketed.

I personally have no objection to any form of Tai-Chi including those secret forms, and even the simplified forms are very good popularisers for the art, and the more people who learn even one move the better IMO. I just object to bullshit for marketing purposes.

Now I don't want to sell you anything, Tian Yin Jia does not want to sell you anything. In fact he insisted that he should not be paid for his trip to the UK in September, he came in friendship and to give gifts of knowledge and history, as he has decided at the age of 74 that the truth and the knowledge of the family should out!!!


   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 02:32 pm: Edit Post

"So we have the interesting prospect of either that Fa-Ke had part of the work that Yang Lu Chan got from the Chens (Chen IMO was always a very broad church of teachings) or that he came under the same influences in Beijing that had happened to Lu Chan and went through the same or similar adaption processes that he had."

Or Chen had all the internal work from his forebears but neglected to tell your sources. Or that your sources are telling you some wondeful story about 'secret forms' because you like swallowing that sort of stuff. And that somehow 'empty force' training is an actual useful training method.
And what is your background in baguazhang that you feel comfortable commenting on it?


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 03:55 pm: Edit Post

This is bizarre I never said anything of the sort!

I said quite clearly in the passage you quote that that is quite possible, it just does not show up in a majority of their western teaching. In fact most Chen students decry it quite vocally as with Edward Hines. In fact the only Chen student I have come across who doesn't is Richard Johnson. Also I am replying to the secret forms not creating one. Have you been reading the same posts that I am writing? or are you just a little bit thick?

Why do you wish to call it "empty force" it is bad translation and very bad description.

I haven't trained much in Bagua but I understand the principle and how it differs from Tai-Chi. I have been a friend and was a training partner up to a couple of years ago with Chris Ray Chappell who is one of Kumar's seniors in the UK, is that enough for you?


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 04:30 pm: Edit Post

Richard Dunn,
I understand what you said earlier in re to Bagua. I only learned to circle walk, single palm change, and a couple techniques, that would never qualify me as a Bagua teacher or enough knowledge on the system to hold conversations with Tim, Allen Pittman etc. However, if you think about it... did Dong Hai Chuan teach forms or principles to Cheng Ting Hua or Yin Fu. It would have to be principles. Because if you are handed a bunch of forms and do not understand the principles... you have a bunch of fancy dancing. From what I have read Dong Hai Chuan taught principles and Yin Fu and Cheng Ting Hua developed their own styles, based on their own previous fighting styles.

This makes alot of sense... because the principles of Bagua (all styles) are the same, but they all differ when it comes to forms and appearance. This makes me believe it was the principles of the art(circle walking etc.) that were taught.

However, in re to the discussion... If you are interested, purchase the Chen Pan Ling book from amazon. It is one of the best for which ever style you study.


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 05:13 pm: Edit Post

I don't qualify as a student let alone a teacher, mine was just a passing aquantance, but that was enough to show it respect. It is one of the treasures of China.

I am not a mixer of arts, I think too much of that goes on especially in Yang Tai-Chi post Cheng-Fu, as so few understand it martialy there has been much polution especially here in the UK, adding hard and Shaolin techniques to create the martial. So much that it has almost become the normality instead of the aberation that it is. Cheng Tin Hung / Dan Docherty and practical / wudang Tai-Chi is a classic example of this.


   By The Iron Bastard on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 05:35 pm: Edit Post

I love this thread! The essential elements of which are; I (Richard Dunn) am from the one and only true lineage everyone else is sub par. Or, I train differtly from you therefore you suck. Both are extremely hilarious. In fact, I laughed so hard I had to take a nap or maybe it's because I got up so early this mouning.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 05:40 pm: Edit Post

I agree 100% that there is to much mixing of the arts. I even feel that I have learned too much to practice daily and I am in the process of recording what I know so I can practice it later in life. I have decided to work on Hsing I and Chen Pan Ling with an emphasis on Chen Pan Ling.

However, I do respect the full contact fighters that cross train... some seem to grasp the essence of each style they train in and that is why they are so accomplished, but most just become long term beginners of each style and then add it to their main style and mess everything up.

I believe that is why Yang Chen Fu said... the style does not need to be altered any further. I read that as you may develop and develop your own understandings but dont inject them into the "art"(i.e. dont mix the arts).

That is unless... you are on the level of Sun Lu tang or Fu Chen Song.

Happy New Years


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 05:45 pm: Edit Post

"I (Richard Dunn) am from the one and only true lineage everyone else is sub par. Or, I train differtly from you therefore you suck."

Please enlighten me, where have I said this in any post. I haven't even thought it consciously so I don't know how I could have even inadvertently implied it!!

Or does your name indicate you are another conflict lover. This group does seem to have a few. The mad monk on the driving licence was a classic :o))


   By Lin (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 06:42 pm: Edit Post

Secret Taichi! That's so funny. Maybe they keep it secret cause it dont work!

Never in China history has a Taichi master win a real fight against other styles top fighter.

Lots of old stories of great Taichi fighters, when there were real fighitng tournments, Taichi fighters never win one!

Maybe you should go learn to realy fight first Thai box or Judo or something and then learn secrets.


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 06:55 pm: Edit Post

After some seven years of learning and severe practice, in 1911 Teacher Yang Jianhou ordered Tian Zhaolin to enter a public fight contest representing his family. Zhaolin was surprised and quickly tried to beg-off, explaining to his teacher that he did not feel adequately prepared and did not wish to bring dishonor on the family. Jianhou responded by telling Zhaolin that he would not have ordered him to enter such a contest if he (Jianhou) did not believe he was well prepared. Tian Zhaolin then followed his teacherís advice, entered the contest, and he won. Once home after the contest, Teacher Jianhou ordered Zhaolin to follow his eldest son Shaohou from this point onward. Shaohou and Zhaolin were often seen together around the capital and at martial art exhibitions. Tianís reputation began to grow after his success in that raw fight competition.

Extract from Tian Zhaolin: A Legacy of Yang Taiji

by

Leroy Clark and Key Sun

Published in Tai-Chi magazine


   By The Iron Bastard on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 08:02 pm: Edit Post

As for lineage Mr. Dunn you have been implying it all along as for the other part it was meant towards the thread in general. That should clarify things a bit.

Mr. Dunn your last post means nothing. What public records do Clark and Sun provide to indicate this tournament even happened?


   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 08:23 pm: Edit Post

Just your interpretation, look to yourself for motivation, seek conflict and satisfy your desire to win. Don't lay *your* problems on me!

There is public record of the tournament in China, I am sorry I don't happen to have it on me at the moment.

Anyway it is obvious that you have nothing to contribute but conflict so you wont mind if I just ignore you from now on.


   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 09:11 pm: Edit Post

Lin,
If Tai Chi did not work... why was it taught to Empirial Guards etc. Why would the Chens, Yangs, Wu,Sun, Fu...develop it?

You dont really think Fu Chen Song worked on an art his whole life that would not be combat efficient, do you?

Speaking of winning Tai Chi artists... William CC Chens son is a SanShou fighter and wins, and you will never guess what style he does...


   By The Iron Bastard on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 09:40 pm: Edit Post

Thank you Mr. Dunn to be ignored by you is one of the kindest compliments I've received all year. Oh, of coures you don't have the public record concerning the tournament in question. Is it possible it never occurred in the first place?

I'll leave you with a little something to consider Mr. Dunn. If you lie to yourself you will lie to others.

Happy New Year Mr. Dunn