Archive through January 15, 2005

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Yang Family Hidden Form?: Archive through January 15, 2005
   By Lin (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:14 pm: Edit Post

Taichi might have some good things. Ching dynasty guards learned Chinese wrestling.

I saw the website of Mr. Chen. His son does sanshou (he does the cool scisors throw, like Cung Li, which part of Taichi form is that?)

   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:23 pm: Edit Post

You got me there... I dont believe Tai Chi has the cool scissors leg throw, but I wonder if his sense of timing, balance, feeling, punching, kicking and throwing came from Tai Chi.

Every art has good things about them.

   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 11:13 am: Edit Post

"I have been a friend and was a training partner up to a couple of years ago with Chris Ray Chappell who is one of Kumar's seniors in the UK, is that enough for you?"

Uh, no. I know and like Chris and studied with Kumar years longer than he did. I know what Kumar teaches and it's quite incomplete to what I am now learning. I now study with Tim's Gao style bagua teacher. The gap of knowlege and skill between the two is profound. That you base your "understanding" on this is telling. Or are you just thick?

   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 11:17 am: Edit Post

"Extract from Tian Zhaolin: A Legacy of Yang Taiji by Leroy Clark and Key Sun
Published in Tai-Chi magazine"

Always a reliable source.

   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 11:36 am: Edit Post

I just saw a person(Alan Wolfenden) selling DVDS on the internet called "Old Yang Style". Does anyone know of him or his teachings?

I am always interested in seeing "Old Yang".

   By Edward Hines on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 12:33 pm: Edit Post


I think that probably the iron bastard is not the only one that thinks on some level you are using the lineage of TYJ as justification for claiming that there is a 'one true way'. I realise I'm distorting what you've said and I'm doing it because I think that is the impression more than one person has got on this forum.

One reason is that many people on this forum have been around Chinese martial arts long enough to have heard most of the stories in one form or another already. When someone says 'oh there's this old man who said he studied with XYZ, and XYZ gave him the true transmission' then our BS meters go on alert.

Almost every Chinese teacher says this, some more loudly and publicly than others. We all like what we do, and either think it's the best or justify making do with less than the best. The same applies here.

People who've been around a bit then start to discriminate based on what they see and feel, and less on the stories that they hear. It's not what XYZ could do 100 years ago, nor even what your teacher can do that's interesting, it's what you can actually do that defines the state of the art.

So far no one seems to be impressed by the stories, nor the video. Of course it's tricky to feel anything over the internet.

As a teacher TYJ doesn't even seem to have it in him to teach his son well enough to learn this mysterious energetic Taiji. Perhaps that's his son's fault for not training enough. Either way that certainly doesn't bode well for the rest of his students.

Incidentally, if TYJ motive is the open sharing of his family treasure why come to England to do it? Why not stay in China where he can at least explain things to people in a common language with a common cultural base to explain concepts through?

best wishes and happy 3 day old year,


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 02:13 pm: Edit Post

Excellent Post, Edward

Not to take away from the Chinese martial experts that I have met, some of whom are excellent teachers and practitioners; but it may surprise some of you to hear how often immigrant Chinese fell into teaching kung fu or taiji when they got to the UK, Canada or the USA and saw the interest in the traditional martial arts among those populations.

Many soon saw that it was easier to teach such classes -- no matter what their real qualifications to do so --than to work all hours in a Chinese restaurant.

   By nats (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 10:21 pm: Edit Post

ditto Edward,

If the family jewels are so secret, why not keep it indoors instead of opening the house to thieves and vagabonds to abuse!!!!!! and steal!

   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 07:38 am: Edit Post

completely the wrong end of the stick!!

I found this group by accident while googling, and the thread on secret pre-Cheng-Fu forms. I had new information to add to this debate. Now with any new information you can take it or leave it, it is your choice. What happened was that I was challenged as to the authenticity of this new information and I responded.

At no point anywhere in this thread have I given away any family jewels, even tried to intimate they were family jewels, or claimed that I or Tian Yin Jian were superior to anyone, or that the training was superior to any other training, or critisised of any other styles or forms. The ONLY critisism is about the history that is being perpetrated around the these secret pre-Cheng Fu forms and groups, as that according to this new information provided by Tian is proving to be mostly BS and fabrication.

Any other motives you put on him or me are your own fantasies.

And to Edwards points, Tian had conclude that this information should die with him. He has 49 Tudi of which only 5 currently train as the rest are out making money in the new China, he became disillusioned, especially as his son as a teenager had an accident that damaged his spine. He has got back to nearly normal and in fact is very strong but will never be of a level for the small frame. Subsequently Yao Guo Qing proved he had it in him so Tian is making him ready to get it and appointed him his primary student.

The other motivation to continue this and get it out there was contact with Leroy Clark and Key Sun who convinced him that the west was a safer place to reposit this knowledge so that it doesn't die. I came on board later purely as I had the organisation to arrange his first trip out of China. There is a trip in the process of being arranged by Leroy and Key to the US, hopefully this coming summer, and I hope to have them back this next September.

   By Bob's Uncle (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 08:37 am: Edit Post


I can only conclude you are deluded.

I quote:

"I am not a mixer of arts, I think too much of that goes on especially in Yang Tai-Chi post Cheng-Fu, as so few understand it martialy there has been much polution especially here in the UK, adding hard and Shaolin techniques to create the martial. So much that it has almost become the normality instead of the aberation that it is. Cheng Tin Hung / Dan Docherty and practical / wudang Tai-Chi is a classic example of this."

"Regarding "Zheng Manqing's style" people do what they want and call it what they want, per usual it is buyer beware!"

How can sombody who has written that not be aware that they are coming off sounding like they have the One True Way?

You go way beyond responding to 'challenges' to your 'new information', but you seem to also be totally unaware of the arrogant way you sound to other people - I suggest a long period of personal reflection, probably a year or two, then come back to your computer when you are more aware of your surroundings.

   By Richard dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:41 pm: Edit Post

Very easily, they are personal views and opinions and similar are expressed here all the time including here by you, and I am not calling you deluded. And I had them before I met Tian when my lineage went through Ip Tai Tak and Yang Sau Chung.

I had made no critisim of Zheng Manqing or his form or style, "buyer beware" applies to everything, including what I do, I thought I was making that quite plain. A generalisation about adding Shaolin to Tai-Chi and visa versa is just that, not any form of claim about anything apart from what it refers to. Anything different to that statement is from you not from me.

I sound like I sound you read like you read, you are obviously somewhat on the Yang side with your sensitivity and perception, perhaps that is a general characteristic of this list.

Try taking my word for it and re-reading with that preconcieved mindset instead of the one you are applying.

You percieve arrogance from your mindset. I KNOW that there was no arrogance behind the motivation to write to this list. So your choice is to either believe me or call me a liar, and that result will say more about you than about me.

   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 12:45 pm: Edit Post

Perhaps part of the problem is that being a Brit of a certain age I know how to write in plain English. Perhaps you are just more used to garbled jargon for a language.

But of course I could be wrong

   By Bob's Uncle (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

Actually, your grammar is pretty poor, and so is your spelling.

   By tccstudent (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 04:38 pm: Edit Post

Actually, I don't think you could go too wrong learning from the Yang Sau Chung/Ip Tai Tak/Gin Soon Chu lineage! There is some really powerful students and teachers in the Gin Soon Chu group from what I've seen.

   By Pumba (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 05:51 pm: Edit Post

Frankly, I smell a Rat.

   By Richard Dunn (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 07:51 pm: Edit Post

I exist! I am a real person! I do not hide behind a false identity. You have my website that has class venues and times. I turn no one away as long as they have a positive and non agressive persona. I keep no rats!!!

I have no desire to challenge anyone but I have desire to share knowledge and that for me is a two way process.

   By Shane on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 08:03 am: Edit Post

judging by those video clips and those snide, non-reality based posts of yours, you've got a good reaon to have no desire to challenge anyone.

if you are a real person why haven't you registers and a user yet?

   By Bob's Uncle (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 12:46 pm: Edit Post

"You percieve arrogance from your mindset. I KNOW that there was no arrogance behind the motivation to write to this list. So your choice is to either believe me or call me a liar, and that result will say more about you than about me."

I don't think you are lying - I'm sure that Tian is who he says he is and you are who you say you are, and that he's doing that bad posture thing with his neck for a real reason.

What you ARE (you seem to like SHOUTING) doing is implying that what he teaches is better than everything else out there and more pure. You use the word 'polluted' [by Shaolin] to describe other lineages, therefore implying yours is more pure.

My question to you is, regardless of his lineage, etc, do you think that what you and Tian teaches would actually work in a real fight?

   By Tim on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 07:45 pm: Edit Post


Did the shrimp lend you their computer?

   By Shane on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 08:27 am: Edit Post

Hey Tim,

Surprisingly, there are a number of tall Asians with computers- who charged me- but shrimp or tall... all the keyboards suck.

things are great.