Groundfighting in Taiji ?

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Groundfighting in Taiji ?

   By David Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 01:14 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Mark!

I believe that you are absolute correct in your approach. I totally agree. I am also studying other arts to give me inspiration and to keep some distance from myself. I think this is important, and especially, because I still have a lot to learn about Taijiquan.

   By Master Owl on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 06:43 pm: Edit Post

I agree with Tim, it is imporant to cross reasearch and grow your gungfu,but in IMA, if you have a strong root, then it is very difficult for someone to get you to the ground in the first place.

Taijiquan does not have ground fighting techniques, because skilled Taijiquan does not need ground fighting techniques.

If some one is teaching Taijiquan ground fighting, then they are not passing on what the true essence of Taijiquan really is.

   By Michael Andre Babin on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 08:05 pm: Edit Post

Any good taiji practitioner will be the sum of his or her own strength and weaknesses as well as of whatever strengths and weaknesses their teacher(s) may have passed on to them.

It is easy to think that you have a lot of skill when you only ever practise the same style with your friends or peers.

There is more to taiji practise than either stylistic "purity" or combative effectiveness; but please don't think that you know everything about real fighting because you have a good root or are able to neutralize a half-hearted push or punch. Real life is full of surprises ...

   By Kenneth Sohl on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 07:42 am: Edit Post

"Taijiquan does not have ground fighting techniques, because skilled Taijiquan does not need ground fighting techniques."

On ancient battlefields you were easily killed if you went down anyway, but a modern streetfight may be very different.

It's one thing to stay standing when fighting someone else trying to do the same, quite another to remain on your feet when fighting someone willing to go to ground in order to take you down. My 2 cents.

   By Bob #2 on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 12:11 pm: Edit Post


You are arguably the most skilled Tai Ji Quan practicioner in the USA.... can YOU be taken to the ground?


   By Master Owl on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 06:14 pm: Edit Post

Find a true Taijiquan master, and ask him for permission to try and push him over...{then you will understand}

Never assume anything!

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 09:29 pm: Edit Post

Owl. That's not the same (although it is of significant value). For example, years ago some magazine did a special issue featuring several 'masters' of diferent arts and how each would deal with certain specified attacks.

One of the masters was a wrestler and one of the defenses was against a double leg takedown. What I found of interest was when a wrestler performed this move (against the master wrestler) he did it quite diferently than any of the other attackers against their 'masters'. In each of the other arts the attempts to do the takedown appeared rather pathetic. Any defense might have worked.

It was very clear that when a wrestler performed that same attack, that none of the other 'masters' defenses would have worked.

You can sometimes get big surprises when training with or testing yourself against someone who does a very diferent art then your own. Better to have it happen in training than elsewhere.

   By Master Owl on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 11:34 pm: Edit Post

On an "external level", I agree this to be true,but, when you find a master of high level in Tai ji quan, all of the "external" laws of physics seem to be cast out the window.{not "magic" but "qi"}

For example, my first Tai ji quan teacher,{R.I.P.}was skinny 120pound old man, at the time. I weighed around 220pounds. At are initial encounter, he put out his left arm and asked me to lift him off the ground. I put my shoulder under his arm and with my combined arms and leg power I pushed and pushed.I could not budge him an inch! I was young at the time, in my mid 20's and had been studing martial arts since I was five years old. I got angry at the point that I could not lift him off the ground, so I charged him with a shoulder strike to the ribs. He just stood there and smiled. When I hit him,{and he made no effort to stop me}I still did not budge him an inch, and it felt as if I was running into a brick wall. I dislocated my shoulder and he did not even raise his arms! Enraged, I tried to strike him again,but this time he was not smiling. I was about four feet away with my arm raised to hit him, but before my fist could find its mark, I felt a strong, "buzzing", jolt, to the front of my body.{the kind you feel if you have ever been shocked}. There was a goldish/blueish flash, and it threw me to the floor. He walked over and helped me up and said "all the power in Tai ji quan comes from one root".

That day I learned, the more you are rooted in your Tai ji quan. The more posibilities are opened up to you.

Do not take qi forgranted like so many "others".

With it, you will always be prepared when "big suprises" happen in a fight,either real, or practice.

   By Bob #411 (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:56 am: Edit Post

Don't take shrooms while reading fantasy stories Mr. Owl.

   By Rich on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 01:14 am: Edit Post


Why "try" to tear off an earlobe if you have hold of it? And what would that do to an enraged assailant?

Your kidding right? Why would you hold someones earlobe and not try tearing it off in a fight... Do you think I would want to hold a persons earlobe to give them a wet willy?

And what would it do... did you see what Tyson did to Holyfield and the pain it put him in.

For the love of cheese man!

   By Rich on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 01:16 am: Edit Post

The above was meant with sarcasim.

   By Shane on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 02:01 am: Edit Post

Holyfield continued and won the fight.

   By Richard Shepard on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:00 am: Edit Post

There was a break and the doctor looked at Holyfield's ear. The immediate effect was intense pain, and that is what you want in a real self-defense situation.

   By Shane on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:47 pm: Edit Post

did the fight continue? Who won?

(if there had been no ref to 'break' the action, maybe Holyfields pain wouldn't have set in until after he finished the fight).

Adrenaline is a crazy thing.

   By Rich on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 04:17 pm: Edit Post

Big Deal... Tyson has lost every fight since buster douglas.

   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 07:31 pm: Edit Post

Rich, Shane makes my point. During a real (as in "street") fight, one may not even notice techniques that would have created great pain in a training environment. I have been both giver (much to my dismay) and reciever (and lucked out) here. A lot of brutal-sounding Barney Fife techniques just aren't a good idea in the real world. Might I suggest attacking the opponent's structure to make movement impossible on his part regardless of the pain felt, such as attacking the joints, or cutting off fuel to his muscles with chokes or strikes to the lungs and surrounding muscles, etc.? (the choke part is one of the reasons I want to learn judo).

   By Kenneth Sohl on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 07:58 pm: Edit Post

Rich, BTW, the "trying" bit was in reference to the fact that if you had a hold of it, it would come off rather easily assuming it didn't shred.

   By eddie eagleclaw (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 08:33 pm: Edit Post

Maybe some of the great masters of tai chi are difficult or even impossible to take down to the ground, but the rest of us can't manage that so some knowledge of ground-fighting is useful if your main goal is effective self-defence. Also, I'm not so sure that even some of the great masters would manage to stay on their feet if there opponent was also a great master, of judo or wrestling of some kind. Frankly, and not meaning to sound rude, it strikes me as a form of dangerous self-delusion to assume that you can't be taken to the ground; not to prepare yourself for that possibility is to miss out an important part of self-defence training.

   By Taowave (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:28 am: Edit Post

may i humbly suggest that to the tai chi practitioner who doesnt feel ground work is necessary that he/she train with a good Greco/Judo/BJJ stylist and report back to me...

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