Hi
I was surfing the Net and I this site came up.
http://store.movementsofmagic.com/index.html

The master is called Bob Klein and among the things he sells are two tapes with "Chinese Kickboxing" on and groundfighting as well.
Has Taiji any groundfighting in itīs system and has anyone heard of this guy?

Any info would be appreciated

Greetings
Tobias

Taijiquan has no groundfighting.

So it could be a mixture of differents arts then ?

anyway thanks Tim for the info

Tobias

Given the current trend for groundfighting, should the art not evolve to counter this problem, or should "traditional" arts remain as they are, warts and all?

Hi Bjornsen

I think the arts should remain as they are, but our training methods should evolve to fit our personal goals. If your goal is to be an all around fighter prepared for any eventuality, then your training should include groudfighting. Tim has said many times that Brazilian Jujutsu (at least well taught) holds to the same principles as the Chinese internal martial arts.

Thanks,
Richard

Bjornsen,
I agree with Richard. If by "evolve" you mean trying to reinvent groundfighting and calling it Taijiquan, it would be a waste of time. Effective groundfighting already exists.

The answer is cross training.

Hi,

I simply meant try to apply techniques to "new" situations. Groundfighting isn't necessarily the way that people used to fight outside of a ring. But as this is becoming, rightly or wrongly, more popular should you not try to explore what you have to address new problems? Not reinvent, more re-apply - evolution builds on what is already there, not start again from scratch. Sure, studying what others have done and looking to see if you can apply your own arts principles is a good way forward, but not cutting and pasting (although I don't think you were implying this).

cheers
B

Tai ji and Bjj have similar principals Que' no?

-Chris Hein

Bob Klein? Some of the worst crap I've ever seen.

Hi

Buddy

Since you think that whatīs "the worst crap" you ever seen I just wonder if you could you be more specific

Do you think that itīs what he is teaching thats no good or is it the quality on the tapes thatīs bad or what?

It`s just that it would be great to find a good Taiji - instruction/applications/fighting tape so thatīs why Iīm asking

Do you or anyone else have any suggestion where one might find any good vhs/dvds on the subject?

Tobias

A misnomer about taijiquan and groundfighting. taijiquan has shuaijiao and qinna as part of its training but nowadays the separation (shauijiao and qinna) most times gives disservice to all three.

The few leitai matches I saw (old fuzzy quality), groundfighting was never an issue since the opponent was alread off the stage, or the fight ended with no need to continue.

Many of the tapes offered are not by Klein, but by his Chinese pal. Klein's stuff is new agey tai chee pap. Really you need a live teacher. Very little can be learned from tapes.

yes tai chi has groundfigthing. its called tai chi fast wrestling and this so called prodigy (what he refers to himself as such) that calls himself Shooter or Bruce and posts on various forums such as emptyflower and bullshido.com claims to have invented it.

never "invented it" nor have I ever claimed such a thing.

I developed a fast-wrestling set on my own because I didn't have any other 'resources' of incorporating ground-fighting into my tjq curriculum.

At one time, there was no ground-fighting in tjq. There is now...at least in my school.

I've tested the training against BJJers and other submission wrestlers in competition - as have many of my training partners. Some people got a problem with that.

so who invented it if not you? Didnt you say you never studied any formal or popular ground fighting styles like bjj or sambo?

Tobias:
Taiji is a boxing method by name. it does have throws, locks, kicks and punches in its techniques.
TaiJI's idea is one principle can be applied in 10,000 techniques. Taiji has no ground fighting, however it is my belief that the principles are applicable on the ground.

That's the way it was explained to me... besides and I know this smacks of an ego, but I feel if you get taken to the ground, then you missed your chance.

While that person is bringing you to the ground, you should be pulling his earlobes and try to tear them off, finger jabbing to his eyes and anything else that will make him re consider his tactics.

I feel wrestling is important, but you should examine your art and realize a ward off standing up or laying down... is still a ward off.

Why "try" to tear off an earlobe if you have hold of it? And what would that do to an enraged assailant?

In a friendly "match", I tossed away a person who tried to go in very low. I think he was going to reach for my legs. I didnīt lower my posture, but even standing almost upright, I still managed to go below his center of gravity and toss(push) him away with no effort. He was very surprised and impressed. And I had never even thought about that I could actually do this. I had never practised to take on a guy trying to reach for my legs.

My point is that if you really know taijiquan(or any of the arts of neijia), there will be no need for groundfighting. It is all about establishing your own posture, be calm and just following your opponents. All of this will be second nature to you, in time. If the situation demands that of you to throw out a powerful punch, or pressing him down to the ground while locking his arm, then you will do that. You will understand what you need to do and how to do it.

I am not telling you this story because I want to look good - believe me. I am only an average taiji-practitioner. Not so good and not so bad. I have a lot of flaws and there are so many things I need to learn more about. But I do believe in the art of Taijiquan and I believe that everything is in there. You just have to look into it and reach for it. I think that if you try to take a lot of things from other styles into Taijiquan, then you do not understand the art, nor the potential of Taiji(in a double manner as in the rights of the original meaning of Zhouyiīs "Taiji" as "Potential").

(please, excuse me for my poor english)

David: I've heard the position before and it's true that many people never learn all of the potential of the art they practice. But things happen and and it's good to have more tools in your tool box even if they might not be needed. There are even some techniques which are really stupid and will get you hurt if you try them but also the specific rare scenario where that technique is the only thing that may work.