Hi Tim--first time poster here!

I have studied Yang style Taiji and some Hebe Xingyi and a little Cheng Ting Hua Bagua. My question is this--the only type of stepping in the Taiji that I study is "empty stepping" where the foot goes out and plants first and then the weight is shifted forward into the foot as the technique is done.

This type of stepping works beautifully in sparring when I am trying to neutralize or throw, but for striking, nothing rocks em like dropping into that forward foot Xingyi-style. I actually really don't like stepping first and then shifting for striking--feels slower and less powerful to me.

So, is "heavy stepping" really absent from Yang style (or worse, against it's principles), or is it just not shown in the form so that the from can be done slowly, and just understood that for combat you may use heavy stepping sometimes?

Wow, I seem to have picked a dud of a topic

I really am curious about this.

Hi Jacob,

I missed your original post. Most styles of IMA teach some form of "empty" stepping so the practitioner learns to shift the weight and move the base without losing balance.

Normally, when applying force rapidly, the weight is shifted quickly (Xingyi style) at some point in all styles of IMA.

As long as you firmly "balance" your weight in one of your foot - to make a direct connectoin between foot and hand, you can still get the same effect. But you must make the connection between one of your feet and the striking hand instantly. The XY or Baji approach are more clear and evident. In taiji, you still need to make some kind of meaning also with your legs and posture. This is why I do not like to speak about taiji footwork as empty.

Sorry Tim, I didnt see your post. You were quicker than me!

Thanks, guys, that's what if figured--good to have the benefit of those more experienced than me

Hi Tim or anybody else,

I'm a bit confused by this thread - particularly this:

" for striking, nothing rocks em like dropping into that forward foot Xingyi-style"

I know Sun style Tai Chi puts the weight on the forward step, but I thought that XingYi kept it on the back foot - at least it looks that way in pictures of Pi Chuan and Beng Chuan....

Is it the case that the weight moves forward, then settles back into the back leg after the strike is done?

Perhaps a video might help - can anybody provide a link to one?

Thanks.

Here's what I mean in still photos- the weight seems to be on the back leg:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/marcello/mutations04.jpg

Thanks - looking forward to some good responses!

imho, in the left picture, the weight looks as if it is traveling through the centerline of the body from the rear foot, weight leaning towards the lead foot. in the right pic, it looks like the lead foot is toed out to get maximum torque from the abdominal region, which is applied to the force that comes from the push of rear leg. not to mention full body power.

"Is it the case that the weight moves forward, then settles back into the back leg after the strike is done?"

well, imho, i guess it would depend on the follow up technique you would use after your punch.

aside from the fact that im just a novice, most questions like concerning the martial arts are hard to address, due to the fact that one answer will always lead to another question, and ultimately, questions that can only be truly answered through diligent and devoted practice and training. to me, the best possible answers that you can find are the answers that you give yourself, that is why training and realization through experience is second to none when it comes to effectiveness in learning and mastering in your own right, the martial arts.


cheers,
rob p.s. dont worry, im sure there is someone who can truly answer all of your questions. *coughtimcough*

Robert - it's Christmas Eve, so Tim is probably busy - until he turns up...

When you do a Beng Quan where does your weight finish - front foot or back foot?

I'm just confused by why people think Sun style uses XingYi stepping, since the weight seems to finish on the front foot in Sun style, but on the back foot in XingYi.

I must be missing something because everybody says Sun style has XingYi stepping - what is it I'm missing?

What Jacob is referring to, I believe, is the more heavy, firm steps in XY and Baji. This is something that TJQ do not have, not even Sun. Sun TJQ has a more direct way of transferring weight from one foot too the other foot, than other TJQ styles. But I do not think sun footwork is XY or BG footwork.

And you can step into what foot you like to in Bengquan. Different styles and different teachers has different philosophies on this matter.

sorry, my English is lousy . . .

Justsomeguy,

In XYQ stepping, the weight moves to the front foot during a forward step and then the back foot half steps up and some weight is immediately shifted back, in preparation for the next step. When you see pictures of people in XYQ postures, they are usually taken at the completion of the movement, so it always apears the weight is back.

Thanks Tim - that would explain it.

Although I'm trying to find a video that shows what you mean. All the ones I've found show the weight stays on the back leg...

For example this one of Pi Chuan:

http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/Splitting.mov

You can pause it and move it in slow motion, so you can see where the weight goes. Feet together, then step forward, but weight stays on back leg...

Why is it I can't find a video where the weight goes to the front leg? Not saying I don't believe you, or is it that I'm looking at it wrong and it does move to the front leg it just appears not to?

In the video, as the guy does his follow-step, his front foot is on the ground, supporting some (not all) of his weight and his back foot is in the air, moving forward--in the air meaning not touching the ground, therefore not supporting any of his weight. When the back foot touches down, just as Tim says, some of the weight transfers to the back foot because now the back foot is supporting the majority of the weight.

Does that help?

Well, just to clarify--In Xingyi I have been taught to hit or "release power (fa jing)" when the front foot "blocks" (like a boxer, kinda),ie, the when weight arives in the front foot, then the back foot catchs up and the weight drops back to prepare to drive forward again. I can say two things about this...

1) To me it looks just like what most good Xingyi people are doing, and

2) Even if it is wrong to some people's thinking, it sure as heck works well

Happy Holidays all--and thanks for the thread

"In the video, as the guy does his follow-step, his front foot is on the ground, supporting some (not all) of his weight and his back foot is in the air, moving forward--in the air meaning not touching the ground, therefore not supporting any of his weight. When the back foot touches down, just as Tim says, some of the weight transfers to the back foot because now the back foot is supporting the majority of the weight.

Does that help?"

Hmmm... not really. I guess that will be Tim's answer as well though. The point where he is 'in the air' to me means that his weight is in the form of forward momentum. Just because it's not on the back foot doesn't mean it's on the front foot - it's not on the back foot or the front, like when you jump - which foot is your weight on when you are in the air? Neither.

If you look at Sun Tai Chi form (see www.taiji.de for a video) they step forward and put the weight firmly on the front foot, then the back foot follow steps up.

I still don't understand how this is the same as stepping in that Pi Chuan vid, which seems to have a different way of stepping.

The similarity with both is that they step forward. Beyond that, I just don't get it. They look different to me.

Well, I don't practice Sun Tai Ji, but here's my best guess: Xing Yi stepping is done faster, Sun Tai Ji stepping is done at tai ji speed. At tai ji speed, you have to put all of the weight in the front leg before you can pick up the back foot, otherwise you fall on your butt. Xing Yi is faster, so you can pick up your back foot and bring it forward and place it down without putting every ounce of your weight in the front. Try slowing the Xing Yi step down to tai ji speed and you'll fall on your butt.

Peter, I think you are right - you can't do XingYi stepping at Sun Tai Ji speed. However, that just re emphasises my point, that the two methods are different types of stepping. If they were the same then the speed wouldn't matter.

IMHO the stepping is the same done slow or fast, the front foot just stops you falling flat on your face when driving off your rear or loaded leg.

Paul

imho, since you are utilizing full body power, you have to step into your front foot as fast as you punch, the front foot is now for a split second your balance foot/leg and the back leg is pretty much empty, at the split second moment of contact or full extension, the weight then shifts naturally in a counter clockwise(or clockwise) circle from the lead hand and back down to the back foot in order to ready for an advance(or retreat), there are variations like the half step and all that stuff also

you move like a bucket of water, the container is still, but the insides are moving.

any more thoughts on this from you Tim?

I'm wondering what type of water moves around inside a still container.

justsomeguy,

The stepping in the Sun Taijiquan form is different than Xingyiquan stepping, in that it is done slowly, with a different follow step (the follow step in the Sun form follows the original Wu form, not Xingyiquan).

The method of force generation is fundamentally the same, the weight is transfered to the front foot and then the back foot follow steps; in the Taijiquan form the weight is held on the front foot longer (as the form is done more slowly) and then the rear foot initiates a retreat step (following the sequence of the original Wu form). In most Xingyiquan forms, the weight is shifted from the front foot to the rear foot and another advance step is taken.

Thanks. I thought they had some differences.

"I'm wondering what type of water moves around inside a still container" That was good Shane. I wonder the same thing when I flush. lol

ha ha freaking ha dr. shane, your just too darn funny, your i.q. must be too hundred million thousand...

what kind of water moves around in a still container??!!

havent you seen jurassic park???




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the t rex creates chi in the cup and makes it move.