I love Taiji. I love all of it's aspects and it's depth. It is hands down my personal favorite martial art. I love people like Dan Docherty, Erle Montawhatever, and William Chen who (even if I think some of what they say is loopy) roll up their sleves and dig in to applying Taiji theory to sweaty, bloody, bone on bone reality. That is why I get so irritated (yes, my mental Taiji is far from perfect--that's why I still train) when people who attempt to intelligently, realistically, and (heaven forbid!) creatively apply Taiji principles and techniques, especially in non-cooperative drills, get berated by people who train the martial aspects (and often the health and meditative as well) either wholly or partially in La La Land.

My teacher's teacher (twice removed on my mother's side) crossed hands with a very prominent La La Land inhabitant (who was by all accounts a nice guy) and handily threw him right down--and then was berated for doing it wrong! Grrrrrr.

So, whatcha say, Taiji guys, can we please sweat and bleed and make mistakes like all the other martial arts so we can exist in the real world, or is the wonderful martial art of Taiji gonna be sentenced to La La Land and fade from the real world? I for one am gonna do my personal best to keep Taiji anchored to reality--and I know I will take a lot of ugly flack for it.

Hi Max, I agree with you! By the way, have you read "Tai Chi Boobs" posts here? Now THAT is la la land to the max! (no pun)

so your bleeding doing taiji?
it must be from going too slow,and all the blood rushed to your head causing a small blood vessel in your nose
to burst.
what's so great about taiji?
everybody that claim to be great at it died
a century ago,and can't back there •••• up anymore.
i did taiji for a while and every time i fought
my moves would keep going long after the fight was over.
sorry i'm picking on you,it's to be expected,right!!!!
but really,have you use your taiji in a real situation?not a lucky redneck punch but a real
taiji move?

imho,
tai chi as an art is a set of principles and philosophies that are to be applied to your own martial arts. focusing on the more subtle aspects of combat, such as yielding to force, relaxed power, sticking, etc, it goes on. (there are also many fighting forms)

if a cage fighter can apply tai chi to his own style, i feel he would be twice as effective. applying tai chi to grappling is golden.

you do not understand an art if you have not trained in it,

even arts as simple as boxing have massive depth when it comes to being able to understand the techniques and actually apply boxing, once you can apply boxing in a fight, then you have an understanding of it.
tai chi is no different, if you have never studied tai chi...
if you have never devoted time and training to understand its principles and actually have the ability to apply them during a combat situation, you are in no place to criticize the effectiveness of tai chi, simply due to observations of others, and not true experience.

cross training is essential, so why not cross train in tai chi?

learn tai chi, then use it, if you get your butt kicked does that mean that tai chi sucks? absolutely not, it just means you suck at tai chi.

actually, to be rash, im rather glad that meatheads have no appreciation for arts such as tai chi. a meathead who has no respect for tai chi, does not deserve it anyway.

p.s. if you are great at your art, taichi comes naturally.

1. meathead= one who is ignorant and closed, open to only his own shallow opinions of what the truth is.

sincerely rob, the meathead.

what is humble about your unfounded or substantiated opinions?

your ramblings are only enriched by the fact that there have been 143 of them in 119 days since you came here.

I'm not trying to belittle you. You are obviously a very enthusiastic young man. But I think that your interests, and the interests of the board would be best served if you refrained from posting anything other than what you have direct or expert knowledge in, or questions. Think of the old 'two ears, one mouth' maxim. If you stay this enthusiastic about IMA and you shut up and listen, I think you'll do very well.

Well, my origional post was a bit of a rambling rant, but I just hate to see what used to be and still can be a good martial system being slowly hijacked. One of the wonderful things about Taiji is it's potential benefits other than martial, but It is a real gem as a martial system. Part of that is personal because I find that the martial Taiji that I have learned is my backbone martially, though I do crosstrain.

Didn't mean to prompt anything other than discussion about the topic--I may have been a bit cranky.

jason m. struck,

im not really sure what your problem is, but it is just a passion of mine to discuss and debate martial arts. so if its a debate or a discussion that you want, just say so. no need to get defensive. (or offensive for that matter)

my opinions are not teachings, they are just my viewpoints, and if you have any reason to express your opinion, i will be sure to listen carefully, although you dont really have anything valuable to say besides jealous remarks and wise comments.
*(c'mon its an internet discussion board for cryin out loud)

i like this site because tim is a great reference and his words and martial knowledge are very valuable to me and im sure that they are to everyone here.
i also like this place cuz the people here are also great people. (well most of them)

so how old are you anyway? do you get out much?

if you want to know about me, you can always check out my webpage. I do online training, if you want to learn some things about strength training. It's very affordable.

I was trying to encourage you to restrain yourself, because you always preface your comments with disclaimers about how you don't know anything about what you are talking about. Others have commented on this on this board. I just think that you should keep your hand a little closer to your chest, and listen more to what the others have to say.

I make two types of posts : silly ones to add levity to the board, mostly at the expense of chi-huggers and newbies,
and secondly on topics where I believe my unique perspective or training or background will add to the board, mostly on the topic of strength/conditioning and other practical training concerns.
Really, dude, if you don't know, just relax and listen. I've learned a lot from this page too.

Jason M Struck wrote
"I do online training, if you want to learn some things about strength training. It's very affordable. "

baw ha ha ha ha he he
I've heard it all now !
the indescreet direct, descreet but undirect, but not direct, challenge me, Challege ME !!!!, I challenge you, I challenge YOU, but come to my place of work where you pay me, and I charge you for the privelage! Unless your giving a free lesson to beat the hell out of someone, well beat the hell out of someones stamina coaching wise that is !! :?)

j.struck,

you are pretty good at giving advice, similarly, taking your own advice can also be beneficial.

Well, i should have know what kind of thread I would generate by starting it with a rant and then calling myself Mad Max .

Anyway--I think that it is important to make realistic and effective training an acceptable part of Taiji (or perhaps even the norm!?!?!) rather than something that is eschewed by most practitioners. Any thoughts on that topic?

Oh, and titling it Taiji Wusses may have been a bit inflammatory too...

I think most of the posters here sympathize with you Max, however...
Tai Chi has had too much press under the chi-huggin flag, and the number of pony-tail sporting yoga-pilates-taichi instructors are probably going to outnumber the Cartmells and Chens at least 100 to 1 for the forseeable future.

To Jason

This must depend on what country you live in and what teachers are available. certainly Taiji is a complicated art and people who understand and know the art completely are not very common.
Not sure if Cartmell and Chen are correct examples but anyone who can demonstrate and explain the use of applications in taiji has to be worthy if the art is to exist.

This debate about the merits or otherwise of taiji is not new. I recall reading the translation of an article in a chinese newspaper in which it was said that less than 1 in 100 practitioners really understood the essence of taiji (c.a. 1930). The person being interviewed said that the original tiaji had been corrupted by the incorportion of the 100 plus moves( apparently it had originated from "old three cuts"? in to 13 postures and then 150+ moves), that had developed at that time. The fellow being interviewed said that he was/had been friends with the Yang brothers, but even their level of skill was less than it might have been, had the original essence not been corrupted. The original essence being whole body strength - which is always maintained in a state of elastic tension- and not just upper body strength which characterised the Yang style. I'm sorry I don't have more to add than that, but to me it is interesting that this argument/difference of opinion has not been resolved in more than 75 years. I'm not sure what it says about human nature in view of the fact that taiji was virtually unknown in the West at that time, but since then it has gained enormous popularity. Usually when something is proven to be bunkum it is forgotten about; perhaps its popularity rests upon it not being perceived as a fighting art by many people.

PS I appreciate I have not listed the article or the gentleman's name and so I suppose you have every right to shoot the messenger, but the translation is under copyright which I respect and I'm not certain if I would get permission to either reproduce it in part or in full or if the arguments it contains would serve to end the argument. I just find it interesting that still the matter has not been resolved. Put's me in mind of religious discourse.

Historyman, is there any possibility for me to read the article? I find it very interesting, so maybe you could mail me a hint?

Thanks in advance!

I found another source of the same material, so I'm now not certain who owns the copyright - it is a book called Warriors of Stillness Vol 2 by Jan Diepersloot. Jan lives in Walnut Creek.

The subject of the interview, I believe,was Wang Zhiang Chai of Da Cheng Chuan and I-Chuan fame.

Apparently some say that Chang Sen Feng on returning to the Shaolin temple where his new internal art (often called Wu Tang Boxing) was taught to Chang Sun Chi... at this point, the art consisted of only three techniques, with many fighting applications, and was called Lao San Dao (Old Three Cuts).

*** I can't find any data in what the 3 original techniques are does anyone know what they were or might have been ? *****

I just love all aspects of Taiji, even gave up Hapkido to return back to my favorite. To each his own. Am I a scary Taiji guy?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/zenman

Just a thought that after Jianhou and Shaohou, everything fell into pieces regarding Yang style.
It seems that ZhaoBin and Zhongwen (nephews of Yang shi taijiquan) at different time periods after Luchan, fate and observation would allow the practitioner to choose what he thought was beneficial for him.

It seems the more proposterous the claim of skill, the more people gravitate to those kinds of venue.

Just a thought that after Jianhou and Shaohou, everything fell into pieces regarding Yang style.
It seems that ZhaoBin and Zhongwen (nephews of Yang shi taijiquan) at different time periods after Luchan, were the better inheritors based of Luchan's style. But for tradition, family got the default job of 'lineage' (real or imaginery)!

It seems the more proposterous the claim of skill, the more people gravitate to those kinds of venue.

Jason, you might find the answer to your question here:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/index.html

Thanks
In the interview I'm not sure how wang said old 3 cuts was what Taiji used to be, when article says its xingyi

Confusing