Archive through January 13, 2006

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Tai Chi and fighting: Archive through January 13, 2006
   By Barry Dewar (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 08:52 am: Edit Post

I am new to this group but having read a few of the posts, I see it is littered with the normal mixture of ignorance, knowledge and simple stupidity. To say Tai Chi is good or no good for self defence is fairly pointless. It would depend on A) who the teacher is and B) who the student is.
It is true however that many Tai Chi teachers do not know who to use the art as self defence and there may be more of this type of teacher in Tai Chi than in other martial arts.

My teacher is Dan Docherty and personally I believe he makes a genuine attempt to teach the whole art,IF you are prepared to put in the time and effort and a bit of money. It is after all how he makes a living but it is not expensive.
I would say that anyone who says you could very effectively use Tai Chi and fight in contact comps without doing Nei Gung would be an idiot.As well as conditioning the body to be able to absorb blows, Nei Gung has fighting applications as well. As Dan has said, to think you can fight without getting hit is pure stupidity and unless the body can take it, you are, to coin a phrase "Knackered".
And there is also intent and plain and simple guts.
I did a bit of boxing when young and saw guys, including myself who looked pretty good when hitting bags etc but get in with a stranger who smacks you a couple and it soon sorts out the men from the boys.
Tai Chi is a great art IMO. I wish I had come across Docherty when I was a young man. He knows his stuff and does not B/S you.

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 02:58 pm: Edit Post

Hi Barry,

Welcome to the group. You boldly mentioned ignorance and stupidity and proceeded to demonstrate both.

While I understand, and somewhat agree with, what you're attempting to say... you might want to sit with Dan Dochery and brush up on a few things before weilding your knowledge around like a pirate on the high-seas in an innertube.

There is no such thing as "Tai Chi" There is "Tai Ji" (which is a concept of yin & yang united)... and there is Tai Ji Chuan (which is a martial art).

Nei Gung means "internal skill." "Nei Gung has fighting applications as well" There are many Martial Arts which are classified as 'Nei Gung', Tai Ji Chuan, Xing Yi Chaun, Ba Gua Zhang to name a few. so.. that statement is true yet pointless at the same time.

Maybe you were referring to "Chi Gung" which means breathing skill, which has no martial applications, although does include several movements which may replicate martial techniques.

   By Jason M. Struck on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 03:30 pm: Edit Post

i always thought that 'knackered' meant tired

   By The Iron Bastard on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 05:46 pm: Edit Post

Tai means big and ji means small chuan, or quan, whichever way one wishes to spell it, means fist. The construction of a fist is the tips of your fingers are points, the fingers and sides of your hand are lines and intersecting lines are a surface i.e. palm. If you draw a line on the side of your hand from the tip of your index finger to the tip of your thumb; what do you have?

Oh my, arenít the mysteries all falling by the way side.

   By Jason M. Struck on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 08:51 pm: Edit Post

tai means great(superlative), like tai shan, or tai hao le. Ji, is a little less clear, but it definitely does not mean fist. It's more like the top, or utmost. The popular 'Grand Ultimate' is not a bad translation. Maybe you meant to say that quan meant fist? Which is correct.
Someone with more chinese experience back me up here, Tim, BK?

   By Jason M. Struck on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 - 08:55 pm: Edit Post

sorry IB, i just saw through your punctuation to the fact that you were saying that quan means fist...

   By The Iron Bastard on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 12:05 am: Edit Post

Ultimately big (great) i.e. Tai and ultimately small i.e. Ji comes to Grand Ultimate or infinitely big and infinitely small the really big infinite both ways, get it. Oh how I love smashing the big mysteries.

   By marc daoust on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 02:26 am: Edit Post

maybe you and dan douche should get get back
in a ring and realize that those old memories
of getting "rocked" around
are still reality to this day!
i think what matters is(a)he's the teacher(the one taking your money
and (b) you're the student(the one spending the money)
i think tai ji means "the grand ultimate spending"

   By barry dewar (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 04:28 am: Edit Post

To Dear Bob
No I did not mean Chi Gung.
If you practice the nei Gung excercises I am talking about, then you know what I am on about, if you do not, then you do not know.

   By barry Dewar (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 08:14 am: Edit Post

Dear Mark Daoust

You get in a ring with dan if you want and try insulting him then. For me, I am happy to pay the pittance I do for insight into what is a great and interesting martial art.
I presume that you do not practice any martial art or if you do, you don't have to pay because you are being taught by a relative. If so,I hope for your sake genetics will not out.

   By Barry Dewar (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 08:17 am: Edit Post

To Jason

"Knackered" does not only mean tired. It can also mean (depending on where you come from)screwed.

   By Jason M. Struck on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 09:31 am: Edit Post

and where do you come from?

   By Meynard on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 01:26 pm: Edit Post

Take it easy on the guy.

Welcome to the Shenwu discussion board Barry.

Please feel free to tell us more about your vast knowledge of Tai Ji and your profound insights regarding the martial arts.

I'm sure it will be interesting.

   By Tim on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 01:30 pm: Edit Post

Hi Barry,

I remember reading about Dan winning full contact tournaments.

Do his students compete in any kind of MMA or Sanda tournaments?

   By Jason M. Struck on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 03:18 pm: Edit Post

i was wondering, like york, essex, london somewhere else in the old UK? I just remembered the first time that I trained with british guys, they'd all say that, and I thought that it was a great expression. Like mingin'. Or fit. Or pants vs. trousers.

and welcome barry

   By Shane on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 03:29 pm: Edit Post

Welcome aboard Barry. Don't let the curmudgeon Bob#2 dampen your spirits.

He means well.

   By D. Borg (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 04:15 pm: Edit Post

"I would say that anyone who says you could very effectively use Tai Chi and fight in contact comps without doing Nei Gung would be an idiot.As well as conditioning the body to be able to absorb blows, Nei Gung has fighting applications as well. "

Taijiquan was never made to combine with these kind of things. A real fight is settled within the first few attacks, or even before someone attacks. Fighting is not the same as a competition. In real life you neither get three rounds with some rest between them, nor a half an hour to stretch and warm up. Taijiquan was not made to compete with, it was developed to use in real fighting and on the battlefield. Anyone that believes that fighting is the same as competing, even if it is full-contact, is in my opinion pretty stupid. So it all depends on how you want to use your art. It is not necessary to be able to withstand hard blows to the body in Taijiquan. That is just an optional matter, just as you might want to combine it with Xingyiquan or BJJ. These methods you mention are all matter of a personal choice, not a matter if you are stupid or not.

Bets Regards, David

   By Ozzy Dave on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 07:48 pm: Edit Post

Guys, lets not get caught up in semantics.

Barry, are these the 24 nei gung exercises of Cheng Tin Hung you are talking about?

Many CMA use "hard" or "soft" nei gung to condition the body to take punishment / perform better or develop a particular athletic skill. I think that conditioning in CMA is still broader as a concept than in modern sports methodologies - at the moment.

Tim, would the exercises you mentioned on another thread concerning Zhao Bao Taijiquan fit into this category?


   By Tony on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 06:24 am: Edit Post

Dan Docherty is well respected in the UK for his fighting abities.He also produces some very competent fighters who have fought and won in MMA competitions.Dan won a full contact championship in Asia in the early eighties.Knocked out a guy who was 100lbs heavier in the 1st round.

I have been on a couple of his courses and found him to be a very intelligent but very hard man.Certainly not someone you would want to mess around with.

   By Barry Dewar (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 07:19 am: Edit Post

To the "warnings" about trolls like Bob2, thanks no worries. I am used to forum tosh.
Seem to be having a problem registering so am still a guest.

To Tim - yes he has trained a few over the last 10-15 years that have had a go.He was largely responsible for getting taiji on the map in the UK competition wise. His students have done very well in the UK and abroad. Initially just forms and pushing hands in 1990. Now they have a form of full contact, gloves and head protection are used and it is open to all styles. Not as vicious as the stuff Dan fought in out East but you can get a few whacks nevertheless.
I would love to have had a go but it is a young mans game.
Before I started with Dan, I had a look at a number of different schools/teachers. He was the only one at the time, trying to teach it as the martial art it really is.
At least Dan and his senior students who teach are trying to keep Taiji alive as it is meant to be taught.I am getting on in years and knees not that good due to other sports but everyone who goes to dans classes will have to do all the class, including punching practice and application practice to the best of their ability. So if you just want to do the form then it is not the class for you.

To Ozzy Dave, yes the Cheng Tin Hung sets.

To D.Borg, I never said fighting was the same as competing. I was trying to say that if you are attacked in either full contact or a street situation, you are likely to get hit even if you come out on top. And Nei Gung will help that situation in terms of lessening the damage to the body.If you think that just by practicing your form, pushing hands and even applications, that will suffice in a contact situation, then I think you are wrong.

To Meynard - troll away Pal ,no problem!I'm just a guy who loves tachi and talking about it.

To Jason - I come from London, within the sound as we say.