I don't think cross training is necessary if you're learning taiji, unless you're entering in competitions or expecting to be attacked on the street fairly soon.

In fact i think that learning bjj or kickboxing will only hurt your taiji practice because you're basically telling yourself that taiji isnt enough and that the external martial arts are more effective, and thats exactly what you'd resort to in a fight.

For example, if you truely understood taiji's principles of yielding and rooting, and trained in this daily, you'd realize that if some guy got you in a clinch and tried to trip you or something, it would be like trying to trip a TREE. You'd bend wherever part of your body (yielding) he was applyin force to to try to trip you, maintaining your balance. by then you'd already have flung him away or striked or kicked him. Sure getting to this level takes a lot of practice but if you give up trying to get to this level because you're too busy thinkin its impossible or unrealistic, then you'll never get there.

Taiji has enough in it to study and learn from for more than a lifetime. If you turn it into something it's not and never comprehend its principles on a deep level you'll never be a true internal martial artist.

Spoken like someone who has not been attacked by someone who was really trying to hurt you and/or someone who has only trained with his peers and teacher(s). I was the same way for many years.

If you are methodical in your approach to cross-training (as opposed to dabbling in martial arts); doing so is a great way to start to understand the ways in which taiji has both strong and weak points as a martial system.

Hi Ryan,

Do you truly understand taiji's principles of yielding and rooting?

Shane

"unless you're expecting to be attacked on the street fairly soon"

Genius. Sheer Genius.

So- women shouldn't bother taking rape prevention classes unless they are expecting to be raped fairly soon... maybe I'll have to change my advertising method's for the courses I offer.

People shouldn't buy smoke detector's (or replace the batteries in them) unless they're expecting a fire soon. Folks should not by earthquake insurance untill they're expecting an earthquake.
Car insurance- who needs it? only those expecting a wreck!

Genius....sheer friggin' genius, Ryan. Pat yourself on the back, man... you're going to do great things in life- or not- unless you're expecting to pass away fairly soon.

So yeah, another thing is all this modern arrogance is kinda sad. Everyone these days thinks they understand combat more than anyone in history. Are you saying that you think you could take the old taiji masters? It's easy to think that because they're not around and you havent seen them proove anything with your own eyes, I haven't either but I think we go too far in our attempts to "demystify" things that we end up stripping out the philosophy, principles and hardwork too.

I do think the whole UFC gracie bjj thing did wake a lot of people up but it also closed a lot of minds. If you weren't in the martial arts world before about 1994 then you didnt get the chance to really see the way the UFC changed everything and created these thousands and thousands of arrogant bastards who strip all the culture out of martial arts and only care about macho bravado.

P.S. I don't claim to be a genius or even a good writer. I do however hope that people would have enough intelligence to see the points when there are some. But i know people on these web forums just look for the bad and bring all the attention to the faults in things instead of the good points. Perhaps i didnt even have any good points, but i still notice it happening to everyone on here.

modern ignorance is sad too.

I'm not saying I can take on old Tai Ji master- I'm implying that I can trip a tree if you are that tree.

By the way- the old Tai Ji masters cross trained. Most learned Tai Ji after already mastering other 'external' arts.

Ryan,
Taijiquan is a great art to be sure, but you have bought in to the limiting mindset that the art you choose to practice is the one and only complete and perfect style. No one style has everything.

Taijiquan has no groundfighting. Assume that even if you can maintain your tree-like stance and no one can take you down, what would happen if the fight started while you were sitting, or if (impossible as this may sound) you slipped and fell?

Perhaps you should find a trained wrestler and ask him to try and take you down. You could then jump out of theory/fantasy into reality and see where you stand, and what you need to do to improve. Reality is a great antidote to arrogance and a closed mind.

I don't think i'm being arrogant or close minded. I agree that in most cases the wrestler would be able to knock down the average taiji guy. My point was, and still is, that if you want to get to a high enough level with taiji you have to believe in it and train for it. Otherwise, why are we training in taiji if we dont believe it works?

As far as slipping and falling, or being attacked in your sleep and such, i don't think taiji only works while in standing position, its best in that position but if you adhered to its principles you'd still have chin na, striking soft targets, yielding, wardoff energy, and remaining relaxed, etc. I still think its a personal choice as to if you wanna train in things like bjj and kickboxing on top of it though, but who's ever going to become a taiji master anymore if we dont believe in it enought to master it.

It's no more arrogant for me to say that taiji is enough on its own than for others to say it's not.

Ryan, I think you're right in that some types of cross training may interfer with your primary training particulary if they use contrasting principles and you are not very well developed in one of the other. But generally the more diferent things you can experience the better. Have a 'major' and several 'minors'. Don't expect to be good at everything. As the guys have been saying, each system can show you diferent weaknesses of the others.

It's easy to over estimate ones' own abilities. Find as many people as you can, especially in diferent systems, who will let you test your skills with them.

Tim seems to be an excellent example of this approach.

Yeah, I think you're right

I think i just get frustrated sometimes when I see everyone telling me not to do something because it supposedly doesn't work or isnt realistic, and at the same time they don't show me why or how. It's usually just because it's their own beliefs and not fact or proven in itself, which is rather hypocritical.

People are used to extracting an art's techniques and then trying to prove them as effective or not. I don't think you can really do this with taiji though because if you just extract the fighting techniques without the principles/philosophies that's not taiji.

ryan,

please... to keep yourself from looking like a monumental dolt:

1- show where anyone on this board has told you not to do something because it supposedly doesn't work or isn't realistic. (use quotations)

2- define 'hypocrtical'

3- reflect on the fact that you started this thread with the following statement:
"I don't think cross training is necessary if you're learning taiji, unless you're entering in competitions or expecting to be attacked on the street fairly soon." ....Then respond to the counterpoint that most taiji masters where cross trainers.... and respond to the comparrision about rape prevention training and earthquake insurance.

4- do you really think a humble and open minded person would ever feel the need to state "I don't think i'm being arrogant or close minded"?

5- when did anyone suggest being attacked while sleeping?

Ryan,
Cross training in several martial arts doesn't mean you don't have faith in any of them, it most likely means you have faith in all of them.

Example: Boxers have total faith that boxing works when exchanging blows, it's been proven countless times, but no real boxer will tell you boxing is the best art for wrestling on the ground.

You'd make an excellent lawyer Bob #2.

Have you ever written a thread with a certain idea in mind and then only got back replies that both had nothing to do with your point and were things you already knew and believed in?

I don't wanna continue on this thread. I apologize for probably not articulating what I really meant to say. Feel free to delete this :P

I'd make an excellent lawyer?!!? don't try to insult me, kid.

Have you ever written a thread- no, I've started many threads though... what would be the purpose in writting my own thread?

No- I've never only gotten replies like you described because I'm always right and everyone always agrees with me otherwise, they'd be idiots.

you can't 'wanna' disconinue a thread- you're in it now. You're reading this right now and I am, at this very moment, sending Chi zzizzles at you which are going to overwhelm you with the desire to respond. Try as you might, you can't help it.

Bob #2
(zzizzle zzizzle)

I can't really tell if you just have a great sense of humor or if you have serious anger/hate issues :/

irregardlessly, you have to admit I've got some powerful Chi zzizzles, my nizzles.

Cheng Man Ching is the only 'bonified master' I've heard of that did only Tai Chi. Other folks, even if primarily in Tai Chi, started out in something which was 'street usable' in a shorter period of time.

ryan,

You must face reality. If even you dont, that is still the reality you choose.

If you do not wish to test taijiquan to see how or waht you have learnt, then you are 100% right.
If you want to do otherwise and dance around in a taichi outfit and feel good, then that is perfectly fair. Nothing is lost.

Tests don't prove everything. In fact they usually just give people a false sense of accomplishment since there are too many variables involved. Not feeling the need to prove things is better.

Let's say i "test taiji" whos to say i know what im doing while im testing, it could be my fault not taichi's. And lets say i don't know what i'm doing and it succeeds in the test. I then think it works and carry around this mistaken belief. Or lets say i do know what i'm doing and it does work in that test. Who's to say it will work in other tests with other factors involved. And wouldn't i have to test it every single day to make sure my skills are still there? Doesn't really matter how good i was a year or two ago, it matters how good i am RIGHT NOW. This would require me to get in a fight every single day just to prove things to myself. No thanks!

What exactly are these tests anyways? If you wanna live in 'reality' quit thinking that anythings a test that proves much. It's all really just 'practice'

ryan,
Let's pretend you've been able to procreate and your daughter is 16 ready to get her license and drive. Would you give her a licnese if she couldn't pass a basic driving test?

No one is saying 'test tai ji' folks are saying the ONLY WAY TO MAKE SURE WHAT YOU ARE LEARNING IS USABLE IS TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN USE IT AGAINST AN UNWILLING OPPONENT. If what you do works- great- if what you do doesn't work- you've got to learn better.

If you live in the Los Angeles or Santa Barbara areas I invite you to come down to a perfectly friendly sparing match with my students (most of whom are over 70 but willing to be thrown hard- you have to promise to try hard or they will mess you up. These are serious students who are motivated to try their best- win or lose- all that matters is really trying).

If, on the other hand, you are one of those chi huggers who just likes doing the forms- DON'T MAKE STUPID STATEMENTS IMPLYING THAT THE ART YOU ARE SUPERFICIALLY LEARNING IS ALL ANYONE NEEDS TO KNOW UNLESS THEY ARE GOING TO COMPETE OR BE ATTACKED FAIRLY SOON.

THAT'S JUST STOOOO-OOOO-OOOO-OOOO-FRIGGING-PID.