Kumar and Patterson???

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Kumar and Patterson???
   By I like Chinese Chiks (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 02:29 am: Edit Post

Hi, I recently bought some dvds on Tai Chi and Hsing Yi Quan. I bought a Tai Chi Yang fighting dvd by Kumar F. Has anyone else seen this and what did they think? I dont really know what I think. I have heard this guy is really great, and the techniques he is doing dont seem very realistic, and the Karate guys that he is practicing with are not that good.

The Mike Patterson tapes on Hsing I are great. I have heard some people say his Hsing I is not good, that is hard to believe! Patterson is really good.


   By Stephen Ott on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 11:23 am: Edit Post

A friend of mine studied with Kumar. From all I can tell, he's the real deal. He can fight and he knows the internal stuff. When you when you realize that its one of the first attempts made by a westerner at showing Yang style applications on an instructional video,you can forgive some of the less sophisticated looking things. Make no mistake...he can fight.

   By Nutzonjoechin (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 01:14 am: Edit Post

Oh brother. (eyes rolling to the back of head)

   By Stephen Ott on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:46 am: Edit Post

Have you seen or studied with him?

   By Jerry on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 06:47 pm: Edit Post

So I got the DVD, had to see this. My previous experience of Kumar is just his internal arts book, which is a great read and actually contains a lot of useful information-- and a lot of stories that I find very implausible. I think there's probably something to both sides of the argument-- that he has a tremendous amount of knowledge and can actually fight; and that he makes your eyes roll up into the back of your head.

This DVD is kind of like that. It's interesting, it's potentially of some actual use, I think, but you'd have to work with it very carefully, try each little thing out for yourself and decide which ones you think you can use.
As an instructional video, I think it's not much good, and potentially kind of dangerous. As a demonstration, it's not as convincing as I would have hoped, but definitely interesting. You ceretainly tell that Kumar just doesn't do form and lead meditations all the time.

He talks about safety some, but frankly I think it's probably not very safe to try this stuff unless you're very skilled, or very cautious. Not only do you have to know how to fall, but fooling around with new stuff and spontaneously invented stuff on your own, with little planning and no supervision, is a great way to get hurt in martial arts.

I'm not talking about sparring, I'm talking about screwing around trying stuff you've never done or even seen before. I know a guy who broke his buddy's collarbone doing that (AFTER aikido class, not during!), and of course they blamed each other.
Kumar and his attackers are clearly safe enough in what they're doing, but that doesn't mean most guys watching the DVD and trying to copy Kumar's moves could do it safely.

Kumar looks pretty good. He's overweight and overage, of course, in the Yang Chen Fu/Wang Shu Jin mold, and his movements aren't extremely fast or agile, but he looks pretty competent most of the time. Some of what he does looks to me like it would work, some doesn't. He misses some of the time, and of course in a real fight, or a totally unrehearsed situation like this, you're going to miss sometimes.

These guys just went out in the park and shot this stuff, that's what they say, and I think you can tell it's true. To be able to do that, he has to know his stuff; but it also shows how casual he is about teaching it. If he wanted to convince the skeptical and critical part of the audience, he'd have put some forethought and preparation into this, and it would have come out much better.

If one tenth of what he says is true, he's spent many years doing martial arts all the time, in Japan and China, including a lot of sparring against all sorts of people, he's studied with famous teachers, and he's a big guy, so why wouldn't he able to fight and do some things? And of course he knows a lot of stuff. I still don't have that sense I have with, for example, Tim, or some of my other teachers, that I can pretty much trust whatever he says. On the contrary, I treat everything Kumar says skeptically.

He talks about chi and energy balls and things like that; apparently one time he pissed Wang Shu Jin off and Wang hit him, or wrenched his arm, pretty good and hurt his back, and he says it wasn't a physical injury, it was "an energy ball" that Wang shot into him. That's the kind of thing I have a problem with, and he says things like that on this DVD-- "taiji is not about physical force, it's about energy", and "this will rip his leg and hip out, which will break his back". Not that the application might not work, but come on, Kumar. Have you ever "broken someone's back"? And if his hip is "ripped out", what breaks the back?

He demonstrates dim mak techniques with the bird beak of single whip-- well, maybe there is such a thing, maybe it can work, I can't prove the contrary, but he probably hasn't really done it on anyone, or had it done to him, or seen it done, and I sure don't know how to do it after seeing this demonstration. I certainly don't buy that that's the bread and butter single whip application that he should be demonstrating on here.

I don't know what it means "the taekwondo guys aren't that good", or how to judge them. They probably are pretty good at what they do. They look pretty good in their taekwondo demo, imho, very relaxed and graceful. I'm sure they don't have much experience demonstrating unrehearsed attacks in the park, against taiji, and they do look a little uncoordinated out there, but they're not really uncoordinated, just out of their groove.

   By Rich on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 07:46 pm: Edit Post

I just bought this dvd myself. I must admit... When I first watched it I wasnt sure what I thought. Then I watched it again and gave it the "what if" test, and I feel there is a lot of useful information and techniques that are relevant.

I always loook for the best in something. If you find one technique or one way of thinking(theory) etc. Then it was worth the 20.00.

I have seen alot worse.

   By best in something (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:21 pm: Edit Post

apprentice here,
said and done
lol the more u read the more u learn Rich. Although i didnt read the book and know everything, i read up more on it. Same with what u teach, ur not my only source, there's more to learn from.
keep postin so the ones that arent as ignorant can keep learning

   By Best Of You (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 12:55 am: Edit Post

the real apprentice,
Rich-grow up, and stop the i'm so cool i'm gonna pretend to be a sixteen year old and will post as him bull, it's been done before, and i guess what, i'm back-get over it
my final word on this subject, grow some nuts and have a conversation like a normal person

   By Rich on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 03:53 am: Edit Post

What in the heak are in making reference too?

You sound like a whack job pal.

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