Hello,

I am a practitioner of the Wu Jian-Quan style of Taijiquan. I was wondering what forms Sun style had, and it's push-hands methods? Would you recommend me this style along with the Wu, or should I go for Bagua and/or Xingyi, and why?

Sun Taiji has one form. Push hands are push hands. Can't comment on the Sun Xing Yi or Bagua.
Cheers
Jake

Matthew,

Before deciding what to study, I suggest being very clear about your goals for training.

Why do you want to study something other than Wu Taijiquan?

Tim-
How about exiling some of your qualified Sun style xingyi/bagua/taiji student(s)/instructors into the American Heartland.....qualified instruction seems to be limited to the coasts.

Tim,

thank you for your time... Sorry for being so vague before. I want to study IMA for self defense and the health benefits, but for now, self defense mostly. I would like to also know about Sun's Push Hands methods? How many are there? Is there a Picture or clip of them being performed? I have seen Bagua Rou Shou, and Xingyi Push Hands, they seem nice. I have seen seen the Sun Taijiquan performed by Madam Sun, and the Shuffling of the feet looked ingenius. I do not know much about it other than that, I know very little about Bagua and Xingyi too.

Again, thank you for your time,

Matthew.

Perry,
I'm a student of Tims but now on the northwest coast in Seattle. You should come up here you would love it. Just spoke with Tim today and he will be coming up this fall for a weekend of training stand up and BJJ. Probably the first weekend in November, but stay tuned until we get the details ironed out.
Cheers
Jake

Jake-
Thanks, but the idea is to find training that won't require scheduling vacation or relocation. I do appreciate the input though.

I know buddy. It is a bummer. Hence one of the main reasons I moved here to Seattle, to be closer to my mantis teacher. Got tired of spending booku bucks to travel and train with him. Now he is a simple 1/4 tank of gas away! Good luck my friend.
Jake

It's all good, Jake.

Ok Tim-
'Exile' might have been too strong of word....too many negative connotations........how about 'dispatch disciples to bring enlightenment and guidance to the American Heartland'?

You have a teacher that is a Mantis?
That is worth making the move

"Sun Taiji has one form"

Actually, there are three that I know of.
Sun Lu Tang's orginal long form is usually counted as 98.
There's also a 73 competition form, which I'm studying now, and it's very cool. Of course, as a competition form, it's designed with an idea of looking good, but it cuts out some repetition-- mainly cuts out most instances of Play Pipa--and includes a lot of different kicks and a lot of left-and-right-handed versions of things like Single Whip and Cloud Hands. i prefer it over the 98.

There is also a 13, which I learned before the 73. I'm honestly not sure I get the point of it; it's a beginner's form. Once you learn it and move on to the 73 or 98, the only reason I can think of to keep doing it is if you want a short form to do when you have about 2 minutes.

2 minutes it takes me longer than that to fart

Perhaps I assume too much..... In the traditional martial system Sun taught there is only one form. People since have created forms for various reasons, but I (nor many others) consider these part of the orginal system created by Sun Lu Tang. If you like them that is fine, but they have nothing to do with the system of Sun Taiji, they were created for wushu competition and "health" aspects, nothing martial.
Cheers
Jake

Matthew,
If self defense is your primary reason for study, I'd suggest looking into a mixed martial arts program, or Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Thai boxing. One or more of these arts is most likely available in your area.

Perry,
You are always welcome to come out here and train.

Jerry,
Sun Lutang created one form, there are now many variations created by others, but should not properly be called Sun Lutang's form.

Tim,

I didn't call the 73 "Sun Lutang's Form". I carefully distinguished it from Sun Lutang's orginal form, and I acknowledged that it was created for competition, and hence with an intention that it look pretty, which it certainly does. However, it's still Sun style taiji. It hasn't been wushu-ified like the 24, for example; I think the movements are still as martial as ever, still true to the original spirit, and (some of them) more athletic and challenging.
I think it's an improvement.

Jake, you also said "push hands are push hands".
Actually, there are many different kinds of push hands drills that can be done, and in my experience, Chen style push hands is pretty different from all the Yang style push hands I've ever done, because of the emphasis on chin na. I don't know whether there is, or was, any distinctive Sun style push hands.
Tim, what role does or did push hands play in the Sun Lu Tang system? And btw, how important was taiji in his fighting system?

I personally am not that interested in fighting. If I were, I don't think I'd be doing taiji; I'd probably be doing bjj, or commuting to Orange County to study with Tim. I do forms for pleasure, and for the kinds of movement and postural skills Tim mentioned that he got out of forms when he used to do them. It's important to me, though, that I know the difference between fighting and what I'm doing.

As far as I can see, around here at least, there is no "Sun taiji [fighting] system" that I could study if I even wanted to. In fact, if there was somebody teaching that, maybe I would be interested. I managed to find a good Sun style teacher xingi/taiji teacher, but she's not interested in fighting.
Her bagua is not Sun style.

If I find a more martially-oriented xingyi or bagua teacher, it probably won't be Sun style, or won't be taught as a unified system. Tim teaches bagua in a martially-oriented way, but it's a mixture of Sun and Gao styles, and he doesn't really teach the xingyi and taiji, except in private lessons. And I don't think his xingyi is Sun style anyhow.

I don't see the point of being a purist about a system that, as far as I can see, is pretty much extinct in its pure form anyway, and that you yourself don't study in its pure and complete form. If you need to defend yourself against murderous attackers these days, a gun is more practical. Martial arts forms serve a variety of purposes, and it's only natural that they would evolve over time.

"Sun Taiji has one form"
"-Actually, there are three that I know of. -"

That seems carefully distinguished.

"I don't think I'd be doing taiji... I do forms for pleasure"

Then how are you qualified to comment on what is or isn't an 'improvement' on Sun Lu Tan's MARTIAL art?


Sheeeeet, crackah please.

Jerry,

All I saw was one basic type of push hands in the Sun family style, the same as most Taijiquan styles' alternating double hand pushing practice.

Sun refers to the practice as "Striking Hands," and it follows the ward-off, roll back, press and push pattern. The method is described in Sun's "A Study of Taijiquan."

"And btw, how important was taiji in his fighting system?"

Sun considered the creation of his Taijiquan form to be the crowning achievment of his career.

"And btw, how important was taiji in his fighting system?"

'Sun considered the creation of his Taijiquan form to be the crowning achievment of his career.'

I read that before, and I can well believe it, because it's a very cool form that teaches xingyi and bagua movement methods. But he developed it late in life, and from what I've heard, most of the Sun family aren't all that big on the taiji, for martial purposes anyway, and would probably rely on xingyi for fighting.

I guess I could rephrase the question this way: do you think that Sun style taiji form practice is important for somene who's mainly interested in actual combat?

"2 minutes it takes me longer than that to fart"

Well, now you have a way to make use of that time!

btw, is that two minutes of continuous emission, or two minutes' effort, building up to a climactic release?

"I don't think I'd be doing taiji... I do forms for pleasure"

Then how are you qualified to comment on what is or isn't an 'improvement' on Sun Lu Tan's MARTIAL art?


Well, Bob, I wasn't aware that we had to be highly qualified to express opinions on this board. I must have missed the credentialling process. It's easy for you; as a legendary figure/superhero/fictional character or whatever you are, you can have any qualifications you want!
I do have the qualification of actually having practiced both forms...

You quoted only part of what I said. I didn't say "only for pleasure". I also do it for the skills, and I find that the 73 has something different, interesting and challenging in almost every move. That's the respect in which I think it's an improvement.

If you were aware of a 10th of my credentials you would address me a Master Sifu Bob#2 just like everyone who has had the pleasure of meeting me.