Archive through September 06, 2006

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Sun taiji , bagua, xingyi, wu taiji.: Archive through September 06, 2006
   By Matthew McCullar on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 06:00 pm: Edit Post


I have studied small amounts of judo and jujitsu with a friend - enough to be confident if I end up on the ground fighting, though, i'm more of a stand up grappler, hehe. Sun taiji has an odd flavor, I got to the Needle At Sea's Bottom in the form, it was odd, in my opinion.

I have someone from the Jiang Rong Qiao's Nei jia kungfu near me teaching. He see's Sun Taiji as Wu(Hao) style primarily.

"Sun considered the creation of his Taijiquan form to be the crowning achievment of his career,"

Not meaning to be rude, but, can you assert why?

I think the Jiang Rong Qiao's Bagua System looks very nice, effective. Bagua is a smart system, in my opinion, and would go along with Taiji very nicely, but, is it just me that thinks so?



   By Doc Lefty on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:40 pm: Edit Post

Re: "not that interested in fighting" ... "how are you qualified to comment on what is or isn't an 'improvement' on Sun Lu Tan's MARTIAL art?"

Correct me if I am wrong but, as far as I know, not only is the term for "martial" in Chinese thinking about so-called "MARTIAL art" clearly and completely different from the term for "fighting," but a lot of what old masters like Sun Lu Tan leave behind in written or oral traditions is focused on understanding the nature of this difference.

   By Tai Chi BOB on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 01:59 am: Edit Post

-"btw, is that two minutes of continuous emission, or two minutes' effort, building up to a climactic release?"
Does it really matter? Ater all I am only doing it for pleasure not the martial intent.

-"Well, now you have a way to make use of that time! "
Hmm yes,I can now combine my farting with the 2 miniute form and by combining the New Sun form improve it. A smoke screen, biological warfare aspect of gas, gas, gas...

   By ALAG on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 02:10 am: Edit Post

I am so glad we have intellectual giants such as Doc Lefty to speak for cultures that he does not belong to.
He so pollitically correct in his culturally bound belief system of what sensitivities we all sould have to heal his world that he has never realized his view is not the veiw of the cultures he continues to speak for.
How rude
Is there a culture you actually belong to Doc Lefty?
If so why not just speak for yourself and leave the rest of the world out of it.
Let me make this clear

   By Perry Garten on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:15 am: Edit Post

-"btw, is that two minutes of continuous emission, or two minutes' effort, building up to a climactic release?"


   By Ventura on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 12:00 pm: Edit Post

Jerry sure is mouthy for someone with absolutely no ability.

   By Tim on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post


Sun felt that he had combined the essence of the three arts he practiced into one coherent system in his Taijiquan.

   By Jerry on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 08:05 pm: Edit Post

"Jerry sure is mouthy for someone with absolutely no ability."

Not true. I have verbal ability.

Actually, all I was trying to do was answer the guy's question, saying that the Sun 73 form exists, and it's worth consideration. I'm not sure why anybody would find that offensive.

   By Matthew McCullar on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 09:09 pm: Edit Post


Makes sense, actually...

Another question, how do you find someone to do applications sparring/practice with? I have trouble finding someone who wants to, or will stay focused... The best I can find is someone that will do 1 application, 1 time, then go into something completely different. I don 't understand.

With regards,

   By Tim on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 03:25 pm: Edit Post


If you can find a school that teaches realistic martial arts, you'll spar in every class.

   By Matthew McCullar on Friday, September 01, 2006 - 07:02 pm: Edit Post


alright, thank you.

One last question, do you feel a wooden dummy is good for practicing?

   By Gary Ellis on Monday, September 04, 2006 - 08:36 pm: Edit Post


Did you steer Matt away from Tai Chi for self-defense because of the typical training mehtods that most TC teachers use? I think that TC principles are better than some of the styles that you listed for practical self-defense IF the proper training methods are there to support the principles...

Which is admittedly rare :-(

   By Tim on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 02:44 am: Edit Post


That IF is sky high.

Taijiquan principles are fist rate, and the rare practitioner that learns the martial aspects for real and trains hard enough is often a good stand up fighter. But for all round "self-defense" and fighting skills, the techniques of Taijiquan are lacking, and sound principles alone are not sufficient.

I'll hazard a guess that there are no Taijiquan schools incorporating hard core conditioning, realistic drilling and full contact sparring in Matthew's neighborhood.

   By Tobbe on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim

You say that the techniques of taiji quan are lacking. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that there is no groundfighting in taiji?

   By Tim on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:36 am: Edit Post

Hi Tobias,

Right, there is no groundfighting. In addition, although most styles of Taijiquan teach good throwing methods, I usually don't see much realistic clinch fight training, little or no breakfall training, and proper methods of getting up off the ground are not taught.

Although there may be instructors covering the following, I've yet to see Taijiquan teachers emphasize the common situations that occur in streetfights, how to utilize the element of surprise and preemptive attacks, or how to properly follow up on downed opponents.

   By Gary Ellis on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 12:19 pm: Edit Post


Yeah, you're right, Tim, I know. I just have a deep, abiding love for the martial art of Tai Chi, and hearing that about Tai Chi is like looking at an old, toothless lion sitting in a zoo :-(--it just breaks my heart.

Where I train we do at least a moderate amount of conditioning and sparring in our Yang Style Tai Chi, and, while we don't have any "peerless heros" or UFC contenders, we do have some lads and lasses who can look after themselves pretty well and can stroll over to the local dojos and spar just fine.

   By Tobbe on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 02:34 pm: Edit Post

Hi Tim
Thanks for answering
About the clinch and getting up from the ground properly - are you going to talk about that in your dvd?


   By Tim on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 06:10 pm: Edit Post

I share the same sentiment.

The new dvd is all about standing holds and the clinch range.

   By Matthew McCullar on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 07:32 pm: Edit Post


yes, you are right about that, pretty much. We do not do conditioning, but I do those before classes, not to the degree of what you do, probably. We have not yet began much sparring, I still need to work on push hands before I start that, my teacher says; but we do practice falling, escapes, applications, ground fighting is very limited. I have your Bagua tape, it's pretty cool.


That's pretty cool, what styles have they sparred against?

Guys, what's your opinion of a wooden dummy? Worth it, or not?


   By Gary Ellis on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 11:16 am: Edit Post


As I said, we do a fair amount of conditioning and sparring--not enough, but at least as much as any self-resepcting karate dojo.

Three of our young guys and one young lady have gotten in the habbit of visiting the three local dojos on their open sparring nights (I'm just too damned old, but I've watched a couple of times). One is Shotokan, one is TKD, the other is Judo/aikido. Our lads (and lass) actually handed the Shotokan and TKD guys their asses at first--surprised them with takedowns, but now they are adapting and it's more productive for all of them. The Judo/aikido guys handed our lads their asses at first, but our guys are getting better at avoiding takedowns and getting back up after being taken down, so that is more productive now too. Note these are our four most hard-core students, we have over 50 or so.

My take on the whole thing is that if you are doing what other sensible MA are doing--staying in shape and sparring responsibly, then your tai chi gives you an edge. If you aren't then there is nothing to give an edge to. Tai Chi is fine on it's own if you just do your conditioning, pad work and sparring like a good little martial artist.