Push hands on the ground

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : Push hands on the ground
   By Tobbe on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 05:37 pm: Edit Post

When I read the comments where was this line
about how BJJ people at high levels use this - true?

   By Tim on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 08:10 pm: Edit Post

When you grapple with someone at a higher level in BJJ, you will feel they are much heavier than they really are, and your movement will be greatly restricted. The game will be "tight" and the leverage applied will be precise.

Training in the manner demonstrated in that video will not develop those skills.

   By chris hein on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 08:25 pm: Edit Post

like this is annoying. Imitating what you think High level skill looks like. Talking about Martial arts from a theoretical point of view, and degrading the training to nothing short of mental masturbation.

I like the little comment "so see we're not doing it like Jiu jitsu, or judo". That's a little intellectual jab at judo and jiu jitsu practitioners that is silly.

A good Judo or Jiu jitsu guy can do everything that guy is talking about, except they can do it for real, against non compliant attacks. They can do what he does. But training the way he is will not enable him to do what they do.

   By Adam on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 08:30 pm: Edit Post

Because Tai Chi has proven to be an unstoppable stand up martial art (just look at all the successful Tai Chi fighters today), it is only logical someone would start applying it on the ground.

I'm sure the guy in the video has a very good MMA fighting record, and probably a good grappling tournament record too. Let's face it, who would be so bold as to teach something they have never tried for real?

   By Tobbe on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:51 am: Edit Post

Why is that - I mean in Taiji quan you have the striking - with fists, with the elbows, with the backhand, you got the wristlocking, you got the kicks and you got the stand - up grappling - I mean itīs no different from other MAīs

   By Tobbe on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:16 pm: Edit Post

I know that in a lot of schools where is no fighttraining to talk about and I know that doing taiji is good for your health and all that but why is it that Taiji attracts so many who donīt want to sweat - I mean take away the fight part it isnīt for everybody - I think that itīs only a small part of the population whoīs interested in learning how to fight and are willing to put in the time and effort but the sweat part - people who I know whos in to yoga - very peaceful people - they certainly sweat when do yoga - Balletdancers - they definitely sweat, people who are in to running sweat so why not most of the taijipeople?
Donīt know the situation when it comes to Bagua or xing yi but I dont think itīs as bad as it seems to be when it comes to Taiji

   By Shane on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:37 pm: Edit Post

IMA compliments BJJ (Many, including Tim, argue BJJ is also an internal art). 'Sticking' 'following' and 'correct alignment' is hugely important in Tai Ji Chuan, Bagua Zhang and BJJ (to name a few arts).

the answer to your question is... the guy in the link exhibits very poor grappling skill (and his co-star appears to have never grappled previously) and the demonstration will not develop the skills needed to apply or defend basic BJJ.

What he's showing, the way he's showing it and explaining it, would only work against a smaller, weaker, completely inexperienced opponent. (which takes the 'art' out of 'Martial Art').

Someone who has really 'rolled' and understands BJJ-101 would quickly get past the method in the clip.

   By Troy on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 12:57 pm: Edit Post

I once took a Taiji class with Tung Kai Ying and his group in L.A. When I was following along in the form I, and mostly everyone else, were sweating profusely. We were going really slow, and yet I had never sweat so much in my life.

   By robert on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 01:11 pm: Edit Post

exactly, niether of the two have any grappling skill.

the beauty of tai chi is the subtlety of it, its like a secret weapon, not something to be displayed so flamboyantly and retardedly.

   By Tobbe on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 05:03 pm: Edit Post

well maybe the weather was fine - isnīt always hot in LA?
No but seriosly When I was doing Karate, oh so many years ago, sometimes I barely made it through class.

You did your kicks and strikes, back and forth in a line maybe a hundred of them each class, a lot of push -ups on your knuckles and bunch of situps, a lot of burpees, a lot of carrying your classmates on your back and doing squats with the person on and so on and so on and on top of that a lot of sparring.

Iīm not saying that there isīnt Taijiclasses where the training is tough, Iīm just saying that I donīt think that the majority of schools have that kind of conditioning in them

   By Troy on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 07:54 pm: Edit Post

Oh I agree about the conditioning part. I once told my original Taiji instructor that we should start introducing sparring into what we were teaching. He looked at me like I was crazy.

And no it's not always hot in LA, of course weather is relative as to what you're used to. Of course there are only 3 seasons in SoCal: cool, warm, and hell. :-)

   By Tobbe on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 04:02 am: Edit Post


   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Sunday, April 06, 2008 - 06:30 pm: Edit Post

The other possibility with this clip is that because his "opponent" was of such poor quality that he didn't need to show what else you can do with his skill. If BBJ guys also use "Sticking, following, and correct alignment," then why cant a taiji person use those same concepts while on the ground?

Was it great? no. But I think that the idea is sound. If one were to practice this concept quite a bit, then you could be effective with it.

Here is kind of a cool clip of anti takedowns of chen style taiji.

   By Jake Burroughs on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 09:36 am: Edit Post

I would really like to see him try against someone who knows what they are doing!
Why would you try to make a style work in a manner it does not train for (ie. ground), in lieu of just training a great system for the ground such as BJJ / Sambo / Judo etc?

   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 07:29 pm: Edit Post

"Why would you try to make a style work in a manner it does not train for"

You wouldn't. You TRAIN for it. haha. I would enjoy watching that as well. It would be cool to see whether he could or not. I doubt it would look like that but he might still be able to hold his own.

   By Tai Chi BOB on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 03:50 am: Edit Post

In the BOB Tai Chi form
we have the step back and pull the carpet out from under 'em posture

that would have worked great in this senario

   By Joseph G Bellone on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 03:03 pm: Edit Post

I would state for the record (heresy) that BJJ is an internal martial art defined originally by Sun Lu Tang. So are a lot of arts.

Let's keep things straight. Just because I'm good with a knife cutting stuff in my kitchen doesn't make me good at knife fighting with a Kali guy...

Where's Roberto Numero Dos???



   By Bob #2 on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 10:18 pm: Edit Post

I've officially fallen.


   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 12:35 am: Edit Post

"Let's keep things straight. Just because I'm good with a knife cutting stuff in my kitchen doesn't make me good at knife fighting with a Kali guy..."

I agree. You would need to train for that situation.

   By Bob #2 on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 02:05 pm: Edit Post

And the opposite is true. 20 years ago i was having dinner with a dear friend, Ivan, who is an extremely talented knife fighter (and is now on death row in texas). Ivan was slicing up a cucumber and cut off 1/2 of his pinky. I laughed so hard a lasagna noodle flopped out of my nose.

Man, those were good times.


   By Joseph G Bellone on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

Roberto Numero Dos...

Freakin hysterical post, but let's not get carried away. I just received my copy of "West Side Story" from Netflix.

Now there are some talented dancers.

Joe "the Jet" Bellone


   By Tai Chi BOB on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 03:35 am: Edit Post

Interesting idea for an Iron Chef episode, but what relevence does it have here?

   By Bob #2 on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 10:27 pm: Edit Post

I think "Joe 'The Bell Ringer' Bellone" works better.


   By Joseph G Bellone on Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 10:03 am: Edit Post

The point I was trying to make was that there are fundamental principles that one can use in both standing and ground techniques, can be the same, i.e. alignment, posture etc -

However, this is important

The variables presented while you are on the ground and standing are very much different. You have to train to feel and understand the variables and pressures for each.

Just because you're very good at standing push hands and have excellent principle/application in that area of fighting - does not mean you can apply that on the ground. It might help you logically comprehend what you need to do on the ground (maybe/maybe not), but until you do it and work within those pressures you'll never be good at it.

You need to work techniques that are suited for the environment and apply the principles that are suited to those environmental techniques. Simple as that.

good training,


   By Kelly Crofts-Johnson on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 03:47 am: Edit Post

Well said. I thoroughly agree. You just said in three little paragraphs what I have been trying to say in like twenty posts, haha.

   By camilyon on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 02:30 am: Edit Post

But you guys have to credit him for inventing a new position: the Wide-Open Guard!

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