Shane,
I am practicing my yielding.
Can you tell?

You were doing pretty well at it till you asked if I could tell.

tim,

when using taiji for basic defense in a short time, give an example of an application, is it still using taiji moves from the forms, or does it look like boxing or grappling?

Martial taiji in a classroom or demonstration setting resembles the postures and training methods if the practitioner has a lot of skill and experience and competent instruction.

Taiji for fighting against a violent and/or skillful opponent would look sloppy and without structure by comparison. Watch a real fight or those sport "matches" that come close to real fighting for some appreciation of how important it is for each practitioner to understand the dynamics of "structure" and "lack of structure". Both must be understood in your body -- not just your head.

Most taiji players only understand structure, not its apparent opposite, even though "lack of structure" is crucial to self-defense skills that might actually prove useful against unrehearsed attacks by an experienced and/or violent attacker.

hi Michael,

I understand real fights are chaotic, but could you give an example of how "lack of structure" is crucial to self defense skills?

I'm just not sure i'm understanding that part of what you're saying. I.e., are you referring to coping with a chaotic situation, or succeeding in being effective without good body structure.
If it's the latter, could you give an example?

Thanks.

On second thought, you may mean both things. If so, sorry, it'd probably be hard to give a concrete example. Do you mean both?

Thanks.

As I often say to my students, "I know what I am trying to say and it always sounds witty and informative in my head; but is often less so to others".

What I was trying to say is that learning to fight -- like anything else -- is best achieved by starting at the bottom and learning simple then intermediate and finally by complicated skills. For example. if a taiji student has never made a fist in their adult lives then they need to learn to do that before they can be taught how to throw a punch, much less defend against one. If you introduce stylistic variations as well (the thumb must be tucked in just-so or one knuckle extends a little further than the others, etc) then even more time and effort is needed on the part of everyone involved. This is structure.

However, at some point down the road, in self-defense terms, the student must have understood martial structure enough to understand how to adapt spontaneously to the attacks of someone who can't punch properly "in stylistic terms" but who is able to hit them repeatedly with a large, stupid-looking swing of their arm because that person is 40 lbs heavier and has turned fighting into a hobby they enjoy every drunken weekend.

In other words, to properly understand structure in martial terms, you also have to understand how to adapt to a lack of the same structure (or any structure for that matter) on the part of an attacker. That's what I meant by how a real fight looks fast and sloppy compared to the clean lines of a staged demonstration or working with a partner where each person is trying to help each other learn -- not survive.

There is a commercial video out called "End of the Century Chen Village Tui Shou Competition." It contains a short documentary about the Chen Village and the history of Tai Ji Quan and then has footage of the push hands competition on a lei tai. If you are able to see the tape you will get a good idea of what Tai Ji Quan looks like in application (although there is no hard contact striking allowed).

The participants are among the best in the world, including the best of the Chen clan. I've heard criticisms of the action by practitioners in the US who say the action looks "sloppy," that the techniques look like Shuai Jiao without a jacket and that the competitors use "force". To those with more practical experience, the foundational principles Tai Ji Quan are apparent, and there is some great technique. It doesen't look much like a 'form' though.

I'm not sure who produces the tape or where it is sold (if anyone does, please post). I recommend viewing a copy to see how the people who invented Tai Ji Quan teach its applications.

Michael: Thanks a lot. That's very clear to me, and I agree completely.

I enjoyed your push hands article I looked up on Earle M's site this morning.

Tim: Thanks very much. I'd LOVE to see the tape. I'll look for it, and if I find it, let you know.

I enjoy your site a lot.

Best wishes.

I hate to spoil the excitement, but there are couple of points to consider here:

1. Most of Chinese masters regard Chenjiagou tui shou tournament as "low level" in regard to taiji skills. Even people like Chen Xiaowang have noted the lack of actual taiji used in these events

2. Most of the Chenjiagou tui shou tournament practitioners do indeed try to use Shuai Jiao. I believe in 1996 there was actually a Shuai Jiao practitioner who entered and won in his division


Tape Link : http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-gr008.html

Thank you for the link. Does anyone know if this is the one with Mario Napoli on it?

I find that when you push hands or spar against another tai chi person you are gaining good experience and it should make you able to adapt to situations, styles, etc. But since tai chi people are taught not to overextend themselves, keep their balance, center, and so on, we do not usually emulate the type of sloppy, off balance attacks that could be encountered on the street.

It's an interesting question. We practice against people with skill, but does that make us ready for anything? I'm tempted to say yes because for one thing, the more the opponent commits himself the more you should be able to use it to your advantage. For another, when people swing wildly, I can go inside on them, which is difficult against most tai chi fighters.

My master always says he is training us to defend against guys bigger than us. that is the point. Otherwise force against force might work just fine.

"when people swing wildly, I can go inside on them" are you speaking 'theoretically'?

Why theoretically?

When people swing wildly (and especially widely) I can usually go inside with fair lady or fan through back. If somone's center is more protected when they swing I stick them on the outside (more common) and counter with a punch, kick, brush knee, etc.

I have done this in class and in real situations. I work for the office of corrections mind you. My skills get tested now and then.

Dmitriy,

1. Have the "Chinese masters" that think Chen style push hands is low level ever entered one of the Chen Jiagou competitions? If so, I'm sure many of us would be interested in seeing that tape. It would be nice to see them push some of the champions around so we can see 'high level' Tai Ji push hands.

2. It is easy to understand how a Shuai Jiao practitioner could win a push hands tournament. Because of the realistic nature of their training, Chinese wrestlers are almost invariably better fighters than Tai Ji Quan players (especially in a venue that disallows strikes and allows throws). The point of the tape is it is a good example of what Tai Ji Quan looks like in application against resisting opponents (who are also trained).

Tim,

Can you tell me the difference of the terms
Bagua, Pakua, baguazhang. Are they the same art? I thought that they were all the same but different ways of spelling the word bagua.

Thanks

Tim,

From the top of my head, one of the people who I recall criticizing Chenjiagou tournament level was Chen Youze, who himself is a national tui shou champion in China and does refereeing for the Chen village tournament. I don't know if there are any tapes of him competing, but note that national level championship is much bigger of an event than Chenjiagou tournament which is still considered a local (provincial) event. As I've mentioned, Chen Xiaowang was not that thrilled with Chen village tournament either, although his tui shou championship credentials are not too clear to me.
Personally, I do like watching Wang Xian's sons compete as well as several Chen Xiaoxing's students (Chen Ziqiang and Chen Bin), however, if you watch the unedited footage of this tournament you get a much better idea of how low the general level of most of the competitors is.

I've done my share of this type of tui shou practice during my Chen style training time, but these days I personally find it counterproductive to my taiji training. Most of this type of tui shou practice still consists of using "force," as opposed to following the principles. After all, it is a competition, and winning is the goal.

As for Shuai Jiao, it's a little more complicated than it might seem. One of the reasons for the Shuai Jiao practitioner winning the tournament is that his opponents also tried to use Shuai Jiao instead of supposed taiji. Naturally Shuai Jiao guy had an advantage, because he actually knew what he was doing. Shuai Jiao has different principles, and is heavily conditioning based, so it's really hard to compete with professionals in their own style. So Shuai Jiao guys might not be better fighters, they're just better wrestlers .


D

Dmitriy,

Do you know if there are any extant and available tapes of the national level championships you mention in your first paragraph? (Or of san shou that you personally would consider top level?) And if there are where they might be available?

Thanks.

I don't think there's much. www.bambootemple.com (also known as Shaolin Brand and CNCKI) used to carry tapes that would have grainy sniplets from tui shou tournaments, although very few of those were good. For san shou/san da I would get the Chinese team challenge matches which are available on VCD's. You can search ebay, your local Chinatown, or get them from Jarek www.chinafrominside.com

The best fighting tape I've seen (and I've only seen some parts of it) was Japanese tape on Xinyi Liuhe fighting by Feng Zhenbao.

D

Thanks, much appreciated. I'll see what I can find.