i have recently read that Erle Monataigue teaches somethingcalled the qi disruprion forms. The idea being that you wave you hands over certain meridians in a certain direction, then strike a certain point. Now call me a cynic, but can this kind of stuff be really applied? Hell, would it even work - the energy dirsruption aspect?

I've seen some of that stuff as well - not in person either. I don't put much stock in the whole 'Qi' theory but look at it from another perspective - if the strikes are on nerve centres and at the same time you're distracting the opponent with your other hand then he is confused and in pain and his flow and motivation will certainly be interrupted.

As for making it work on someone who's really psyched out....good luck, I'll stick to stuff with a higher % personally.

Just my 2 centavos.

Although Erle teaches some valuable concepts, that is one which I don't go along with. It is possible though, that this may really be working on the flinch or startle reaction.

To state the obvious, the issue of "chi", its existence and possible applications, seems to be a recurring source of debate both here and throughout the martial arts community. On one end of the continuum seems to be the staunch non-believers. This group appears to recognize the phenomenon at times, but denies its usefulness in any martial applications, limiting its place to chinese medicine and folklore. On the other end of the continuum are the true believers, who seem to embrace the concept, the extremists not only asserting the existence of martial applications of chi but also claimthe ability to perform these feats. I believe that a cultural difference lies at the heart of this controversy, but recognize that this is not the only source of contention. I recently reviewed a PBS Bill Moyers segment of a series called Healing and the Mind from 1993, focusing on the chinese medical paradigm. Moyers was accompanied by Dr. David Eisenberg of Harvard Medical School. One of the key points of the discussion was that in the chinese medical paradigm, the central concept IS chi. While accepting and using western medical theory, the traditional approach exists side by side in daily practice. The segment explored the different fields of specialty within the traditional chinese paradigm, including chi gung, both internal and external (i.e. done by a doctor to the patient, or done by the patient herself). The segment also explored the role of tai chi in health development and chinese culture in general. One section was devoted to a Master who teaches in purple bamboo park, and showed him projecting his energy into his students with various results, while MAINTAINING physical contact. In a recent post that appears to have been lost in the soap opera surrounding a certain proponent and purported master of kong jing, I raised the question I am raising again here. Tim, what are the limits of fah jing while maintaining physical contact? I feel it necessary to add to the query at this point. As stated before, I am in the skeptic camp when it comes to kong jing. I recognize the multiple controversies that the issue of martial application of chi(even a clear definition of the term) raises. And to clarify a premise stated above, the fact that chi is a major part of the chinese culture and was and still is a source of mystery to many of us raised with a rationalist western perspective only muddies the waters. Nonetheless, I believe that failing to address or recognize the role, potential, actual, or mythical, that chi plays in "internal" arts is like ignoring the 800 pound pink elephant at the tea party. While exploring the martial terrain within my personal reach has occupied much of my time for over two decades, I find myself only recently (the last 5 years or so) to have found well thought out and researched discussions and articles on the topic of "internal" arts and chi. I have been a physical disciple training regulary for the last 15 years,(sporadically for 5 years or so before that)- the last 4-5 more and more exclusively in tai chi and ba gua(although I was first introduced to tai chi as part of my physical discipline 15 years ago, I believe that only in the last 4-5 years had my instruction been authentic to any real degree). I am not stirring up controversy for controversy sake, but out of a true desire to understand and apply what knowledge I can glean from various sources. Your input, Tim, would be appreciated, as would any other thoughtful comments. (I have no desire to enter into the soap opera triggered by dubious claims in other posts.)As a final note to this post, I will add that while in the final analysis, my own training and critical analysis of the results I can achieve will be the proof of the pudding, I beleieve that many minds can sometimes in a collaborative effort uncover more truth than any single mind, and I am grateful that this discussion board offers that opportunity.

Walter,

I enjoy your posts... but I'd like to suggest that pressing the 'enter' key (twice) once in a while will make your posts easier to read.

Point well taken, will do in the future Shane.

Hi people
I think you may have got the wrong impression about Earles Qi disruption.
It focuses on hitting points in a sequence in order to break balance/knock out/lock/ break etc.He doesn't wave his hands thats for sure.
Yes I have experienced it from Earle,and another of his instructors.
Admittly I was in a stationary positon(nice and easy to hit the points)and the hits were just that(not touches)I wasn't knocked out but did feel a bit woozy.Ofcause I have felt woozer when I have had people intentionly throw me/hit me etc as well.
Another instructor explained it as not something to focus on but that if you were constantly told about the points during training(partner work)always being aware of there actions(healing/martial)that subconsciously you start to hit towards those points in sparing.
I would like to add that many of the points are straight out obivous,eg carotid sinus,temple area etc.
He seems to go overboard on the marketing and the fact that a few of his instructors seem to take it all a bit too serious and have there own agendas.
So nothing earth shaking just I have built up a respect for the guy and the way he teaches.

Erle does teach several forms he picked up in China that utilize qi disruption techniques. The "disruptions" involve swiping the hand or hands over certain areas of the body to affect the disruption and then striking certain points. The techniques are sort of like the opposite of meridian massage, where you might run your hands a centimeter or so over the skin to affect a particular meridian for healing, except in the case of the disruptions the hands are whipped with fa-jing to disrupt the energy, and each must be done pretty close to the skin, like an inch away from the body. And the strikes are usually done within a split second of having done the disruption with instantaneous results.

The disruptions are usually coupled with a blocking or neutralizing move or strike so that you can neutralize an attack, enter, use the disruption and strike all with only a move or two.

These are not "no-touch" KO's or "empty force" techniques. They are simply techniques that disrupt the energy to make a certain point vulnerable for attack, and are practiced as part of a fighting method, not as methods in themselves. You couldn't for instance, use a disruption on someone and have them fall down or pass out, but they would be a little weaker physically and would be vulnerable to a certain strike.

There are several "push hands" type exercises he also teaches that utilize the same movements from the disruptions. These exercises, though, are closer to sparring than push hands, and are done with fa-jing. Done at capacity, they are quite violent, and even without the disruption movements inherent in them, lend themselves to close in fighting.

Personally, I view the disruption phenomenon as if the hands were tearing a hole in the wei qi over certain areas of the body, making them more vulnerable for a follow-up strike. I don't know all that much about Chinese medicine, but I have read that the wei qi is the qi that protects us from illness and the type of qi we try to enhance for Iron Body.

But anyway, the disruptions are used as part of your defense. He doesn't advocate just using a disruption and the following strike and standing back to see if it works or not. He advocates getting in and striking, maybe using the disruption and the strike, and then striking to other vital points as well, employing a bit of overkill to get the job done. But just learning the disruption and the follow-up strike will not do you any good if you do not know how to fight and get in there to use them in the first place, and Erle stresses learning to fight more than trying some silly technique. The disruptions and point striking are icing on the cake.

Hi Walter,
You asked about the "limits of fa jing while maintaining physical contact." I'm not quite sure what the question is; do you mean "how hard can you hit somebody?" If this is the question, the answer will always be a function of mass and the speed at which it is delivered, also taking into consideration the angle of entry of the force and the relative weight and stability of the person being struck.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the reply. No, I don't mean how hard can you hit someone, rather what degree of control can be exerted. As I mentioned above, there is another post of mine in the kong jing area raising this issue. I have personally witnessed(in the training hall I am currently studying) and seen on tape (the Moyers series mentioned above) demonstrations where the person performing the technique maintained contact and exerted a high degre of control over the subject and his/her movements with technique that was not readily discernible. (Again, the post in the kong jing topic area elucidates a bit more.)

Your reply above in re how hard one can hit another, "the answer will always be a function of mass and the speed at which it is delivered, also taking into consideration the angle of entry of the force and the relative weight and stability of the person being struck" appears to be grounded in a western physics analysis. Is it safe to conclude that you leave no room for other theories of energy or force in your thinking?

To clarify my position, while I also subscribe to the principles of newtonian physics, I have not completely dismissed other theories or principles of energy or force. While I readily concede there is no shortage of charlatans advancing their abilities and making unsubstantiated claims, I am not prepared to dismiss the idea of qi as a natural (not mystical) force along with its permutations and expressions into various martial energies that at the moment I concede are beyond my comprehension. I think that while these theories should not be used as a first line of explanation for martial ability or unexplained phenomenon in one's martial training, that dismissing the possibilities of these ideas is unnecessarily limiting, especially given the tradition that accompanies these theories both in the martial and medical fields.

Thank you in advance for any response you may offer. I regret my inability to visit your school at the present time, but one never knows what the future may bring.

A quick post script. Tim, are you familiar with the style of tai chi that Lo practices? If so, are there any videos illustrating this style? Thank you.

Hi Walter,
I've lurked on the thread up to this point but I'd like to give some of my personal observerations that apply to some of your questions.

I live in the greater Boston area and studied Yang style Tai Chi with a very good teacher in Chinatown. He studied with Yang Chen Fu's oldest son. The teachers eldest son also taught and is a very good practioner and real nice person. Overall, a great experience. They don't let you push hands until you learn the whole long form, actually, you have to go through 3 corrections, and then you're allowed to start some other things.

I've seen people push with the teacher and his son and bounce off walls and do all sorts of crazy weird things. It's not chi, it's being polite and doing things that you 'think' you should be doing. With many people, it's probably like the Emperors new clothes, you're supossed to feel something and do something, but you really don't, but you just play along to get along.

Don't get me wrong, they are really nice people. I enjoyed my experience very much, but empty force - nope.

Now, the Bill Moyers series -
A couple of years back I got to train with Andrew (the American with the pony tail on the special that trained with the Tai Chi teacher in the Park.) Actually, there were other folks that contribute to this board there (Buddy, you were there in Cohassett, I believe). He's a real good guy, anyway we were training with his Yin Fu Bagua teacher Xie Pei Qi.

I asked Andrew if he was the guy on the Bill Moyer's series and he said he was. I asked him about the empty force demonstrations. He told me that they were demonstrations, and they did those things because that's what the TV folks wanted to see. The TV folks didn't tell them to do those things, but it was pretty much known that that's what they were interested in seeing. He also explained about doing things in a formal setting with your teacher, doing what's expected so nobody loses face, etc. I understood and we left it at that. He also mentioned that he just trained with Xie Pei Qi at this point, because this little old Bagua guy was the real deal. During the workouts, Dr. Qi would just beat on Andrew at times, no empty force, just a good old fashion, cool technique ass whopping. I sure if there was anything to empty force Andrew would've stayed with the Tai Chi teacher in the park.

Tim explains things in terms of what the audience he's explaining too would understand. He's pragmatic in his approach to martial arts. That's why he speaks in western science terms. He was basically in China for 11 years. He can read and write Classical Chinese and has trained with most all of the best internal guys in the world. Nobody, ever moved him with empty force. If they did, Tim would also be talking and training people in it.

good training,
Joe

Hi Walter,
I try to remain open minded, but, as Joe pointed out above, in all my years of training (here and in China), I've seen some truly amazing things, but I've never seen ANYTHING I couldn't explain with good old Western physics.

It's interesting how people tend to interpret things according to their preconceived ideas and the context in which they are observed. An elderly Chinese man pushes someone over with what appears to the untrained observer to be a light touch, and it is immediately assumed to be a result of invisible Qi power. How come no one thinks the performers in the Cirque Du Soleil have mysterious powers? Even better, I saw David Copperfield walk through the Great Wall of China.

Sorry, I missed the post script. Lo teaches the Chen Pan Ling Combined form of Tai Ji Quan. I learned the form after practicing the Ba Gua Zhang. To my knowledge, there are no tapes on the style. However, Chen Pan Ling's book on his Tai Ji form has been translated into English by Y. W. Chang and Ann Carruthers. It is called "Chen Pan Ling's Original Tai Chi Chuan Textbook," and is published by Blitz Design, the ISBN no. is 0-9660240-5-2

Tim, I have a question regarding your book on effortless combat throws. In the book you have a whole section devoted to intent. I liked presentation and ideas imensly (but being pretty dim I still ask for a little more ...) Can you please give an example of the technique whose efficiency is increased with focusing of your intent. For example, boxers taught to punch through the bag. What is intent in your understanding?

How much role does intent play in the fighting game?

Now the final question (this is why I post it on this thread): What about disrupting oponents intention instead of abstract Qi (could it explain most of the qi disruption stuff). Are there any techniques that deal with it, perhaps affecting patterns in neuromuscular activity of the body?
For example using some kind of knee jerk reflex to make oponent loose his focus and make them switch gears.

Please excuse my luck of coherence.

And PLEASE ask Meynard post shenwu tournament
clips.

Hi Tim,
Thanks for the replies. Time for reflection on my part. After the post directly following your replies I am reminded of the expression that the qi follows the intent, or mind. I guess my search for understanding how best to invest my training efforts continues (a good thing). I wonder how much of my curiousuty is driven by a desire to understand the limits of my own efforts, the desire to expand those limits and the difficulty that comes from trying to understand the product of another culture.
Good training,
Walter

Snoopy,
I define 'intent' as the focus of the conscious mind (basically, where you focus your attention). Intent is usually the most important variable in a fight (and is inseparable from your mindset). Without the will/intent to fight, you cannot succeed no matter your level of physical or technical ability.

I advocate pouring your intent 'outward' (or 'into' the opponent) with unrelenting attention. ALL techniques will have increased efficiency with the proper focus of the intent.

In regards to "disrupting the opponent's intention" please read the section in my book on 'dividing attention.' Techniques which involve feints, pain, loss of balance... can all serve to disrupt the opponent's attention long enough for you to apply your intented technique.

Meynard will put up clips from the tournament.

Thnk you I'm hitting the books now ...

Tim
You have studied both the Old Yang Style tai chi derived from Yang Shao Hou and also Chen Pan Ling's tai chi. Chen Pan Ling also studied with Yang Shao Hou. After studying with Yang Shao Hou and other masters, Chen Pan Ling is said to have created his own "synthetic" style of tai chi. On the other hand, there are some who claim that what Chen Pan Ling taught in Taiwan was the Old Yang Style. As you have studied both forms, would you say that Chen Pan Ling's tai chi is basically "old yang style" or is it a distinct form in itself? Could you comment on the similarities/differences between these 2 forms? Thanks.

Chen Pan Ling's form is quite different from the Old Yang form. In Chen Pan Ling's form, the influences from the Chen Tai Ji and Wu Tai Ji are evident. Chen Pan Ling's form follows the same basic sequence as the Yang form, but is divided into six sections as opposed to three in the Yang form. In Chen Pan Ling's form there is also a great emphasis put on circling the hips and upper body through distinct horizontal and vertical circles (Pan Jia Zi). The overall even speed of the form is the same as the Yang style, there are no explosive 'fa jing' movements or stomping of the feet found in the old Chen style.