Greetings:
I was reading through your description of Taijichuan on your web page and found the following statement
"The diligent student of Tai Ji Quan, properly trained, will have acquired real self defense ability in a matter of months, as opposed to the years of training required in many other martial systems."
Months? Many of the people with whom I have spoken talk about five to ten years before one is an adept fighter. Have I missed something?

T.Thoms

P.S. Please see my posting in the "Looking for a School forum". Thanks.

Would you take swimming lessons from someone who said it'd take between 5-10 years to become an adept swimmer?

No, because it doesn't take between 5 and 10 years to learn to swim. That's silly.

I'm not a very good swimmer.

Here's what someone told me to do -
Get down on my living room on my floor and practice swimming motions over and over again. I practice this every day, once in the morning, once in the evening because I want to be a very good swimmer. Maybe even an Olympic hopeful!
I must admit, I'm very good at swimming on my floor (of course, there's no water on my living room floor) by now because I've been doing this for about 15 years.

BUT

I am only able to get to the water once or twice a year and I can't swim anything like my nephew who gets to the water 3 times a week but only has been "swimming" for 1 year.

It's just plain crazy, huh???

good training,
Joe

Boo...

It's more like Quantum Physics.

If you just went into PHd level physics class you would have no "root" in the basics, thus get frustrated and leave. Perhaps reverting to a simplier method like addition/subtraction and claim it's the "real deal." May help you balance your budget and keep a house hold but you're not going to the moon or building skyscrappers on addition/subtration. or really see the potential of what the human body can do.

It takes years to develop this foundation. Can't happen in months.

Tim,

Can you expand a little on what you meant when you said,

"The diligent student of Tai Ji Quan, properly trained, will have acquired real self defense ability in a matter of months, as opposed to the years of training required in many other martial systems."

Thank you,

After thinking more about my smartass 'swimming' analogy, I think I should explain my logic- I consider myself a "Martial HobbiArtist". I got into TaiJi for health and flexibility reasons. Spent the first couple of years inconsistantly participating in classes where we only did forms and chi-gung.

Then, I met a teacher who got me interested in learning the martial side of Yang style. I spent about two years with him learning more about proper alignment and how the applications of each movement work (we didn't spar because the majority of the class were senior citizens). That teacher introduced me to Tim where I've spent the last 3+ years learning Sun Bagua forms, applications and a hell of a lot about fighting and throwing (and not being thrown).... however, after all this time I could not be considered an 'adept fighter'. I don't spar frequently or intensely enough to hone those skills.

However, I do know that If my aim was to fight- and spent a few focused months with a quality teacher (Tim) learning Tai Ji or Bagua fighting- I could be an adept fighter in short order. For me it's a fun hobby... and I lack the drive to be a 'fighter'.

Shane

Graham,
The Internal martial arts are designed around using the body in a 'natural' manner. Early training is more about inhibiting and "unlearning" bad habits than developing some kind of mysterious power. Everyone has an inborn ability to fight. The average person is capable of producing a tremendous amount of power, if they don't get in their own way. I have taught dozens and dozens of people to hit at least five times harder (if not ten times harder) in a week or so than they could the first day. In the beginning, it's all about correcting the alignment of the body and learning to move in a coherent rhythm (which are innate abilities, they are distorted by learning and sometimes trauma, they are attributes that are to be returned to first, not forced over already inneficient patterns of movement). With correct exercises and drills, the body remembers fairly quickly. Then you start with basic patterns of movement that occur when fighting (for example, how to cover your head, it's actually instinctive, with a little tweaking and 'live' practice with gloves on, most people can develop a fairly good guard in a couple of weeks). Remember, I'm not talking about high level skill or "mastery" of the art, I'm talking about basic self defense ability. Why can you learn these things faster with the IMA (properly taught) than many other martial arts? Because the IMA work first with what you already have, not with skills and attributes that need years to develop (which is not to say the IMA cannot be continually developed and refined for as long as one chooses to practice).

Boo makes the fundamental error of assuming his reality is everyone's reality. Just because he didn't develop useful skills in a relatively short period of time, he concludes it cannot be done. I can't run a four minute mile, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that no one can. His analogy sums up my statements very well. How long does it take to learn to add and subtract, a few months? Now you have basic, useful math skills that you can use in the real world. You can work your way up to higher levels of math (as you balance your budget and maintain your household, important skills no?). The point is, you don't have to wait until you have a PhD to start writing checks.

I have a question. Do you think a potential fighter back in the day when practical fighting skills were not pursued as a hobby (and could very well save your life) would choose a style that took ten years of practice before he could use it? Not likely. Any style that required even a third that amount of time to confer at least basic, practical ability would not have survived. Name any other discipline, athletic or otherwise where it takes 10 years to gain basic proficiency. There are none. Next time someone tries to sell you the 10 year plan, think "marketing."

That's why TC get's the big bucks....you know,as in the MAN has spoken!

I never heard of a single Chinese martial arts master "going to the moon".

I mean... COME ON!

COME ON...there's only one Bob #2.

There's only ONE Tim Cartmell. A no sh$t, straight shooter, who's the real deal.

I'm flattered.

ps When does the "big bucks" part start to happen?

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your answer. I think I see where you're coming from. I agree with you that fighting ability can be attained in a short time using the methods you describe. However, whether you can say that it is Tai Chi Chuan or not is where I'm at.

From my experience the principles of Tai Chi Chuan (e.g. on an elementary level: roundness and continuity of movement, posture, coordination, etc) take a hell of a long time to get to a reasonable standard. Then there's the principles of push hands to add to that. I'd look at what you're describe more as ataining an intermediate level of skill.

I don't disagree with you about fighting ability, and that it can be developed quickly using the methods you've described (correct alignment and coherent rythm etc...), but I can't see how the softness that characterises Tai Chi Chuan can be atained that quickly - there's just so much practice that needs to be done before you can develop 'softness' in combat!

Interesting that you mention marketing. My Sifu is a believer in the "10 year plan" (well, probably more than 10 if truth be told), and I know for a fact that it has nothing to do with marketing since he's never asked me for a penny.

Hope you can appreciate my alternative view point - don't want to cause an argument with you because I don't doubt your skills and I really respect what you're doing.

p.s. I brought your book on combat throws and I thought it was really great.

Perhaps part of the problem lies in how most modern teachers and practitioners approach taiji -- as a form of exercise. By contrast, my main teachers both told me the same thing over the years "the methods should give you basic self-defence skills in a few months or years; but refining those skills will take a lifetime of on-going effort".

Over the decades, I have found this to be true and so have many of my students. Short-term skills are rough, involve the risk of bruises (to the ego and elsewhere!) and a substantial amount of sweat. The beginning of the forging process so-to-speak.

Long-term training (assuming competent instruction) polishes the five or ten-year practitioner so that he or she moves with the ease, effeciency and authority that a beginner can only marvel at. This doesn't mean that the beginner can't learn to apply the same methods for combat purposes This is one of the pleasures of taiji as a martial system which, as a by-product to self-defense skill, brings better health and even emotional/spritiual benefits.

On the other hand, most students of modern taiji don't have a real interest in training that is difficult -- too many people have bought into the myth of taiji "being effortless". In my opinion, if all you do is "sensitivity" type push-hands and slow form there's not much hope that you will develop any kind of real self-defense skill in any amount of time.

Tim, I've enjoyed your book and articles and thanks for providing a forum that is usually worth reading!

I think you can start to get the Taiji flavor
in few months (lets say six) by doing a lot of
work. One's fighting won't fit the ideal of
Taiji fighting but certain elements will have
crept in if one has made an effort to integrate
the postural principles into daily life as well
as forms practice. For example, learning to be
sung will certainly speed up one's movements.
Obviously there is no set way to fight with
Taiji, you fight the way you fight with more and
more adherence to the principles. Gotta love
those principles.

Here's a nickel - you can give me back three pennies.

Graham,
I agree that generally it takes quite a bit of training before a fighter will remain 'relaxed' under pressure. It's a matter of degree. My point is that functional skill can be developed rather quickly.

Michael brought up an excellent point. There has to be pressure in training. Forms and push hands (although excellent methods of trainig) will not, by themselves prepare students for fighting. Where I may differ from others is that I believe in introducing pressure (in the form of non-cooperative or non-prescripted drills) as early as possible in training. This provides students with realistic feedback as to their present level of ability, and gives direction to their individual training.

In the arnis style I practice, fighting is started from day one. It continues relentlessly throughout the years until you reach your teacher's level, at which point you can score a few on him, but be careful doing that...

There is constant pressure, in smoothness, speed, accuracy, strength, technique, etc. There are no rules. You are always feel like you are behind, trying to catch up. Many people quit because they cannot handle it psychologically.

In 1 year I learned to fight quite well and stay relaxed in the process.

Part of the problem is that with tai chi you are usually focusing on learning form first without any applications. In most external styles you may learn a practical technique or two right away. Sure, even a relative beginer can apply tai chi principles in self defense, but this is limited. My master sometimes gives a street fighting course to people who want some self defense right away. He allows people to enroll in it even without completing the short form (the usual prerequisite for fighting, push hands, etc.). This course uses tai chi principles.
To me, more acomplished fighting prowess sort of creeps up (or down) on you. Many students express the feeling that they do not know if they are ready for real life situations even after years. I think almost everyone is more ready than they think they are, especially if they train hard. However, I have encountered those with many years of experience who say they would not necessarily use tai chi as a their first choice in a fight and this concerns me.

"Part of the problem is that with Tai Ji you are usually focusing on learning form first without any applications"

... in your experience. When you find a different school you may be suprised.