What is the oldest Taji Quan?

Tim's Discussion Board: Tai Ji Quan : What is the oldest Taji Quan?

   By Royal Dragon on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 04:43 pm: Edit Post

>>Is this a purely intellectual pursuit?

>>Why do you study taiji?
I was forced to learn it, or My Sifu wouldn't teach me the "Cool" Stuff. later I developed health problems from extreme over work, living on only a few broken hours of sleep a night for over a year, and a psycotic work scedual (literally in the Cardio zone most of the day). I was hospitalised for a day over it.

When it was all over, I couldn't do the "Cool" Stuff as I was too messed up, and I was left with only the Taiji. For the first time I took it seriously, and it is almost single handedly responsible for me being able to some of the "Cool" Stuff again. Now I love it and get up early just to go to the local forest preserve and practice by the little waterfall in the morining.

I'm not trying to credit or discredit what I am doing, as I am happy with it, and my coach is very skilled with mechanics, so I know I'm doing this stuff right (He could turn San Zhen into Taiji if he wanted), I just want to study the history a bit more as it is so confuseing.

I get that way. When confused my instinct is to dig deeper.That is what I am doing with the history/origin stuff. Unless you talk to Meynard, He says I'm here soley to promote my site (LOL!!)


   By Meynard on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 06:16 pm: Edit Post

Naahhh!! You're just promoting yourself.

   By Royal Dragon on Wednesday, September 04, 2002 - 08:34 pm: Edit Post

Loooooooordddd, God help me!!!! :rolleyes:

   By Tom on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post


Stanley Henning, "Ignorance, Legend and Taijiquan."

   By Walter T. Joyce Sr. on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 12:27 pm: Edit Post

You can lead a horse to water, but some prefer kool-aid.

   By Meynard on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 03:49 pm: Edit Post


You have a set that YOU call the original tai ji. Right... The key here is that you're always trying validate your theory that YOU have the original tai ji. Just go back to teaching children, they're more open to made up stuff and other mythical fantasies.

   By Royal Dragon on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 06:57 pm: Edit Post

No, our "line" cals it "Original" Taiji. That sparked my interet in the history to see what others may think the original Taiji looks like. They also said our 37 move form was from 960 AD, but EVERY one I sent video of it to says it's a Yang style hybred. My guess is a Tai Tzu guy also practiced Yang style, and blended the two sets.

I bet it's no more than 100 years old tops, probably only 50.

Try and cut me some slack, at least I know much of what I was told is BS now, and I'm trying to figure it out as best I can.

   By Mike Sigman on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 10:17 am: Edit Post

Well, if you're aware that "much of what you were told is BS" and that the "original form" (do you know how many bogus 'original forms' there are?) is probably some sort of hash.... can you tell me how you teach people this stuff, charge for it, and present it as some form of Taiji even though you know it's probably bogus?

Just curious.

Mike Sigman

   By Tom on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:44 pm: Edit Post

Mike, your "curiosity" is legendary. ;^]

   By Meynard on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 02:49 pm: Edit Post

LOL I think Gian might have a hard time explaining himself.

   By Royal Dragon on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:31 pm: Edit Post

Mike Sigman,
As for my teachers, simple, they don't belive it's not genuine (The history I mean). I'm the only one questioning it, and it hasn't been to well recived. My imediate Sifu won't make claimes as to it's origins anymore, other than the Chao family made it up. I think my questioning has something to do with that.

No matter, it's still a legit Yang sub style, or a Tai tzu/Yang style cross developed by the Chao family. I tell students it's the "Chao" family Taiji Quan, because it is. It NOT Yang, but it's NOT pure Tai Tzu either, but a blend of both. It's it's own legitimate and unique Taiji branch.

It's age could be anything form pre Chen that influanced the Chen and the Yang, to a modern cross between Tai Tzu and Yang (It has an explosive highly Fajing method of practice higher up too). Only the Chao family knows for sure when it was created, and I don't speak Taiwan/Chinese so I can't directly ask them.

I say I teach "Chao" family Taiji Quan. No lies, decptions or egsaggerations. I state everything I just told you and let the student decide what he wants to belive. I sure don't know what to believe, I just know it's a good set and I like it.

I also point out that a Li Hu, Ba fa specialist has been correcting my mechanics, so "MY" set has a Li Hu, Ba Fa flavor to it, and is different that the actual Chao Family set, even though all the moves are the same. The difference is basically I emphasis more Open/Close mechanics, and it was originally taught to me with more of a figure 8 hips motion (I still do that, just not as much, I use much smaller circles). The way "I" was first taught the form made me refer to it as "Elvis" style Tai Chi because of the hipp motion throughout. I suspect that tightens up later on, but I have'nt seen it yet (That's what an older brother says anyway).

   By stc on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post


What is Li Hu, Ba Fa?



   By Royal Dragon on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 09:05 pm: Edit Post

LHBF is an internal art built on Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. It was developed about 150-200 years ago. Apparently it is based on the writings of Taoist hermit Chen Po from the Sung dynasty.

See http://www.liuhopafa.com/

Wai Lun Choi is the current standard bearer of the style. His younger Kung Fu brother teaches in Hong Kong I believe.

   By cvp on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 04:34 pm: Edit Post

Royal Dragon,

Just out of curiousity, who is the liuhopafa specialist that has been correcting your mechanics? You are in IL and Master Choi is also in IL....I don't know why you wouldn't go to the source of LHBF if it's in your own backyard as oppose to a 'specialist'.

BTW> Your answer will probably not surprise me. LOL.

   By Sal Canzonieri (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 03:52 pm: Edit Post

Yang Lu Chan studied Shaolin Hong Quan first, before Chen Tai Ji.

Yang tai ji has moves that are not in the Chen style forms.
But these same moves are found in various Shaolin forms, such as Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and Shaolin Da Hong Quan and also in Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan.
Also, some bits are found in Shaolin Lohan forms.

So, now what?

   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 07:50 pm: Edit Post

Where did this bit of fantasy come from?

   By sleepydragon (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 12:04 am: Edit Post

He kinda has a point. There is a northern shaolin style called My Jhong Lohan and there are alot of movements that are tai chi postures such as single whip and brush knee. They are done light and soft like tai chi, but very quickly.

Ehh... who knows anymore!

   By Lucas (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 08:53 am: Edit Post

That's because most of the Northern Chinesee forms find their base in longfist (don't what is meant by Shaolin).

There is a finite set of viable body postures and longfist is more or less that set.

Of course Zhang San Feng predates all of this and that is why only taiji is unique!

   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 09:19 am: Edit Post

But where is the evidence that Yang studied Hongquan?

   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post


Try to get the historical record correct. Chen style is the one that "absorbed" Hongquan and Tai Zu and incorporated it into whjat we know today as chen style.

Yang never studied Shaolin forms.

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