Hello,
I have a Taji form called the 64 move form. It is suposed to predate Chen by quite a bit and is called by our group "The original taji"

It consists mostly of the 8 postures of Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pull Down, Spliting, Shoulder & Hips done in 8 different directions

The first part of the form does the first four postures in 4 directions starting with South then North, and then East then West followed by the second 4 postures done in a North West to South East and then South West to North East directions.

At the end of each of the second four postures, it steps up and Wards off again followed by two roll backs (Stepping backwards) into push and press, then the turn.

Has anyone ever seen a Taji Form like this, and if so do you have any idea of it's age or who may have created it?

Gian

Ok, since this does not seem to be gettng any attention, can anyone answer this:

What would an ancient PRE Chen Taiji Quan look, like?

Can anyone venture a guess?

Hi Guys,

Check out Douglas Wiles' latest book - Tai Chi Ancestors. There's a lot of interesting info in there. You may find what you're looking for.

Why don't you just answer your own question?
Blah, blah, blah...visit my site blah, blah, blah...I know the original tai ji...blah, blah, blah...

Royal,

I have a sense that you may gain more understanding and feedback to your queries over at the emptyflower forum...

On the other hand if you're trying to market your site then maybe you should stay here and reach a broader market. Besides, I would miss seeing the folks here either shoot down or just ignore your post.

There are several systems that have survived in one form or another that predate modern (Chen derivative) Taijiquan, from which modern Taijiquan is suspected to have incorporated principles and techniques.

One of these systems is called "Xian Tian Quan" (Pre-Heaven Boxing). It's creation is linked to Li Dao Zi, a Daoist recluse living in the Tang Dynasty. My Yi Quan teacher learned a version of this form as a young man. The form includes many of the movements seen in modern Taijiquan, and the form is done in a smooth and connected manner, very much like modern Taijiquan forms.

There are several other styles that appear to have come from similar "soft style" roots that may have influenced the martial arts taught by the famous general Qi Jiguang, who surveyed the majority of the martial styles popular at the time (Ming Dynasty) and synthesized them into a coherent system. His method of empty hand combat is supposed to have influenced Chen Wang Ting, the founder of Chen family martial arts (later known as Taijiquan). Many of the postures and movements of Chen style Taijiquan were taken from Qi Jiguang's form including "Lazy About Tying Clothes (Lan Zha Yi), "Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg" (Jin Ji Du Li) and "Angled Single Whip" (Ao Dan Bian). These are the original names of Qi's forms.

A book written by Huang Baijia in 1675 called "Nei Jia Quan Fa" (The Method of Internal Boxing) outlines the now familiar story of Zhang San Feng modifying his Shaolin method to create a 'soft' style of martial arts. The lineage of instruction is not related to the art developed in the Chen village, but follows similar principles.

So, there were a number of systems popular in the late Ming/early Ching Dynasties that were related in one way or another to modern Taijiquan, but can be considered 'pre-Tai Ji.'

What do people know about the Wudan Shan style of Tai Chi Chuan? (n.b. this is different to the 'Wudang' style practiced by Cheng Ting Hung's students).

It's practiced by the Taoist monks on Wundan mountain. A friend of mine who goes to China quite often has been there and seen them, so I know this is not a made-up BS story

Many people consider it a worthy candidate as a precursor to Yang and Chen styles. It's also interesting to note that Wudan mountain is not very far away from Chen village...

They only teach Wudan Shan (or the real stuff at least) to other monks, so it's not spread to other places, although watered-down versions of it have been spotted in big Chinese cities.

Did somebody connected with the evolution of Tai Chi Chuan learn from one of these monks at some point in the past? Who knows?

Personally, I think that all we'll ever be able to safely say is that Tai Chi Chuan evolved from the old Taoist martial arts of China. It's much more likely to have been the product of continued evolution than something created by one person at one point in time.

Graham

Royal Dragon:
The 13 Movements by Cheng San Feng is the oldest form of Tai Ji, I posted this before but I guess my comments are not liked by someone.

Tim,
Thank you for an explanation I appreciate the fact that you recognize I am actually trying to converse here.

"One of these systems is called "Xian Tian Quan" (Pre-Heaven Boxing). It's creation is linked to Li Dao Zi, a Daoist recluse living in the Tang Dynasty. My Yi Quan teacher learned a version of this form as a young man. The form includes many of the movements seen in modern Taijiquan, and the form is done in a smooth and connected manner, very much like modern Taijiquan forms."

Reply]
Does this system contain the 8 postures of Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pull Down, Spliting, Elbow, and Shoulders/Hips??

Mr. Shen,
How far back can the 13 postures be traced?

In our system they are the five elements of wood, metal, eath, fire and water combined with the 8 postures I listed above. Does this match the 13 postures you spoke of as well?

If it predates Chen style, can you name several systems that contain the 13 posturs, and there general geographical location?

On the subject of Chen Zhang Feng, If he DID infact invent the 13 postures, how was it desseminated from him to the rest of the world?

Also, I read somewhere once that he was a descendant of Chen Po's lineage (Founder of Li Hu Ba Fa), what do you think of the theory that Chen Po actually developed what eventually became Taiji Quan?

Gian

PS, what's this impression I'm trying to market my site here?? I reread my post, and I don't see any mention of it, not even a URL. Is the concept that I may actually be trying to converse that difficult for some of you to understand?

I'll chip in my 2 cents and say that most of the guesses about what pre-dates Taiji are speculative. There is a sory among *most* Chen-style practitioners in Chen Village that the Chens actually learned the pre-cursor to Taiji in Shanxi province before the clan was forcefully moved to the neighborhood of the present Chen Village in Henan Province. There is also a story that in that same lineage, Qi Ji Guang practiced a variant of the same original style, so even that speculative version about borrowing postures from Qi Ji Guang is open to questions and perpetual bickering.

The one inescapable point I see is that the extreme dependence upon "open and close" mechanics and using 6-harmonies mechanics to "hit with the dantien" while using "nei jin" also is seen in the Xinyi from Shanxi Province (whence Xing Yi appears to derive from) and in a very likely candidate for the art that preceded "Pa Kua Zhang". It's this "open and close" dependence with the dantien and neijin (which unavoidably implies 6 harmony movement) that seems to tie Taiji to any valid forbears.

Although the ideas of "13 postures" is nice, as is the similarity of posture-names in various arts, a lot of those things don't tell us much because in too many cases no one knows how the original arts named in some many texts really looked like and in too many cases a lot of dissimilar arts had postures with popular names, etc. A good example is to look at the common qinna "small capture", which every CMA uses... but the jin mechanics is quite different in neijia and shaolin, on a coarse level (on a high level, a lot of the differences between neijia and shaolin disappear).

In short, other than the fact that Xinyi and Taiji seem to have roots in Shanxi Province, little is really known about contributive arts and most is speculation or propaganda.

The story about Zhang San Feng founding Taiji is bunk. A little reading of legitimate history and what is really known about ZSF will clarify why that is so.

FWIW

Mike

The Xian Tian Quan includes the basic energies of modern Taijiquan, but the art is not structured around them.

Mike Sigman,
Interesting, I always though Bagua came from a circle walking meditation like those found in some Taoist Natural Fist styles (another art I would like to research when I have time).

Is it possible that Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua at some point in time were all one united art similar to Li Hu, Ba Fa?

If so, are there any arts besides LHBF that contains all the core essenses of the three sisters? Xian Tian Quan posibly?? (I don't know of this style, so I'm asking.

Gian

Insofar as the "basic energies" of the neijia (I think there are about 15 arts that fall into that category, but just like in Taiji not all practitioners of those arts practice them very well), there is a logic to the use of the "nei jin" that is sort of inescapable. If you're in for a penny, you are inevitably in for a pound. So once an art uses "nei jin" and all of its variant applications, etc., there are things that must happen; for instance:

The body must be using six-harmonies motion;
The store-and-release of the dantian must be used or it won't be neijin that is being used and besides, the dantien is the core of the six-harmonies movement;
The qi must be sunk or it can't be neijin that is used;
Reverse breathing must be used or you don't get much power from the store-and-release and you never develop the "fascia" aspects or the full dantian;
And so on. There's more. As they say, the cross-implications make these arts "very deep".

But it is those very cross-implications that make all the "basic energies" of the true neijia arts the same. The arts are not totally the same, but every knowledgeable Chinese expert will tend to say "similar principles" or "same principles", depending on the sharpness of your focus.


On "core arts",if I had to *guess*, and that's all it would be, I'd guess that there was some core art from which those 3 (and some others) derived from. I'd put my chips on some art from Shanxi Province, but that would be simple speculation based on similarities and things I have heard from enough sources that I think there's something there. An interesting conversation along those lines can be had from Li Tai Liang, if anyone gets a chance to visit with him.

Insofar as Liu He Ba Fa, I'll pass. The history of an art that is "thousands of years old" but which contains elements of Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua (which are "not thousands of years old"is too much for my logic processes to handle. Besides which the lineage stuff doesn't withstand close scrutiny and that's a pretty well-known fact in China.

FWIW

Mike

LHBF is only 150-200 years old tops and is "Based" on Chen Po's teachings, suposedly.
From where I'm sitting, it is more likely LHBF was created by combiibg the other three.

I'm curious if there is an art that is also a combination of the three sisters, only way older, and maybe the three sisters are all branches that solidified out of some individual practitioners personal preferances of that ancient art.

Since my historical knowledge on the subject is superficial and limited mostly to various "Legands", I was hoping there would be someone here that knew of an art that old, and would be versed enough in the history to entertain my theory for the fun of it.

Gian

Mike Sigman:
"Chen" San Feng was real. He did make up the 13 Postures of Tai Chi. These are the oldest because they are the original. If you don't believe me, ask any of the "Chen" Family for proper history, they will tell you.

Royal Dragon:
Cheng San Feng made the Original 13 postures, it's the oldest Tai Chi out there, it's the original. Yes there are the 8 movements -
Ward Off, Roll Back, Press, Push, Pull Down, Spliting, Elbow, Shoulder
Also - move forward, move backward, look right , gaze left and central equilibrium. All of these you practice during Push Hands and also Da Lu.

I did ask the Chen family, and what you say is not what they say. So if Yang Lu Chan was just a servant who learned in Chen Village when he was the property of Chen Hu De, why would you belief the later story from outside of Chen Village?

And it turns out that the "13 Postures" you mention are not the original poem after all. It seems that Yang Lu Chan was good at Chen-style and he worked hard as a servant, but he got some of his poems mixed up. That is one of them.

FWIW

Mike

THAT sounds like my 64 move form!! We do it in the 8 directions with a few minor additons like stepping backwards to push in some areas as well as stepping backwards to roll back. We do the first 4 postures in 4 directions s,n,w,e, and the second 4 in the nw,se,sw,ne.

I also have an "8 Gates" form that is literaly just the 8 postures done in the 8 directions (a precurser to the 64). I'm betting THIS is the original, and not the 64, but who really knows. I have heard Chen Zhang Feng was a myth made up to keep up with the Da Mo story so anything could be true.

If Chen Zhang Feng was real, did he do the 8 postures like I describes my form?? or did he just play "Push hands" with them? For that matter, if he is not real, how did who ever invented the 8 postures practice them?? Was it the same as we do today?? (Forms for a wile then on to push hands with them??) Or would it be all pushhands. Would they have been linked, or done as individual movements? (I'm going to say linked)

Also, if Chen Zhang feng was real, did he actually invent the 8 postures, or did it come from an older style like the above mentioned Xian Tian Quan?

Comments anyone?

Just curious, are you interested in history or mythology?

Well, I gues both as they seem to be intertwined.

Historical fact is what I really want, but that seems hard to come by. Most of what I have seen over my life contradics the rest of what I have seen, and I'm at a point now where I don't really believe any of it anymore. I don't think any opne knows WHO invented any of this stuff, save for some really documanted stuff, like Yang Lu Shan or something like the 32 move form of Emperor Chao Kuang yin (Because it's on the wood block carvings dated from the era), even then, I don't know for sure because "I" haven't seen them or dated them myself, and if I had I have no way of knowing they don't represent some other joe shmoes 32 move form from that era.

Everytime I think I have it figured out I find a "New" expert that says everything I "Think" I know is rubbish and I should go to China and do an archelogical did or something to that effect.

I suspect Taiji is MUCH older than we think, and probualy goes back to the time the I Ching was witten. I'm looking for other's thoughts on the subject. My curiosity was sparked due to the fact that I have a set called the "Original" Taiji, and it is what I would expect a prehistorical Taiji to be. Of course, it could be that someone "Jurassic parked" it reacently, so who knows.

At the heart of my question is, what are you after? What sources will you rely on? Is this a purely intellectual pursuit?

Why do you study taiji?

It seems to me, what matters is if your training gives you the results you are looking for. Everything else, while it may be of some interest, is superfluous.