Greetings all,

I am curious, how do you guys practise escapes from holds and locks?

Now, not getting into holds and locks in the first place is pretty much the best way to do it, but what if you fail and you are in a lock/hold? Of course, there are specific responses to specific locks, but there are also general aspects when it comes to creating space, escaping, etc.

I am interested in both certain applied techniques as well as general/specific principles.

Thanks

Mark

We usually learn specific techniques to escape the most common holds you will encounter in the street (head locks, body locks, lapel grap and punch, leg tackles). The rule for us is you must be able to escape the holds with leverage (actually, counter-leverage and counter throwing techniques) only, against a fully resisting opponent, without resorting to strikes. This is so the student is confident he or she can escape for real. In my experience, this is extremely important. I've had quite a few students with previous training that thought they could escape a tight hold with a "groin grab" or "pressure point strike" and ended up helpless on the ground or choked out. Strikes are added once a student can escape for real without them.

A good drill we often practice is to have one student stand in the middle of the mat. Every other student in class takes a turn applying any kind of hold they want. If the attacker can maintain the hold or submit the defender, they win, if the defender can escape, he wins.

Later, students are taught escapes and counters to less commonly seen leverages and joint locks.

Hey Tim

Have you ever thought or writing a follow up to the Zhao Da Yuan book ...

"Countering Practical Chin Na"

stc

In terms of general aspects I find that adhering to the Tai Chi principles is very helpful when you wish to avoid/escape locks. For one thing, TCC makes more "twisty", for lack of a better term (flexible doesn't quite capture it).

For example an Akido practitioner I work with liked to show me his skills by putting me in locks from time to time. After I started doing TCC he attempted to put me in a hand lock & couldn't. I just sort of twisted around with it without really knowing what I was doing.

Beyond that though this question has me wanting to debate the utility of this type of thing. A choke hold is one thing - it can turn deadly in a hurry, but other than that...

I always wonder who in a "real situation" is going to put me (or try to put me) in a joint lock for example. Why would someone do that? And if they tried, as they were coming at me wouldn't I deal with it the same as if they were trying to strike me? This is assuming they have not yet made contact.

Sure I train to apply & escape from Chin Na, but it is certainly not my biggest concern. For another thing, in my TCC training we learn to stick & follow with little or know grabbing before a counter attack. If we do grab it would just be briefly, say with only pinky & thumb, while kicking for example.

When you grab someone too hard or too long they know your center. I want to know THEIR center so that I can use this info to my advantage. So in that sense even if they could get a grip on me it would not necessarily be a problem. Besides many locks are very easy to escape, so I can't see wasting too much time on this.

On final thought I have is that TCC is all about overcoming 1000 lbs. with 4 oz. This is an idea that in my eyes is infinitly more approachable in the vast array of non-chin na applications that this art has to offer. Although no doubt good chin na does not rely on force against force either. I guess like ground fighting it is a last resort out of necessity.

I won't put ya in a sissy joint lock. Just a good Pee Chaun should do the trick

I could respond to this but I think I'll wait for Bob #2 to go first.

Dragonprawn,

I think you do not understand Chin Na. The principles utilized to apply Chin Na techniques correctly are the very same principles necessary for good TCC. A joint lock will work against anyone effortlessly when timed and executed properly (meaning it was the proper technique in both form and function for that instant). This holds true for any aspect of martial training whether kicking, striking, throwing or grappling (stand up or on the ground).

Applying Chin Na techniques requires a high level of skill in order to quickly recognize and seize an opportunity while the opponent is unaware rather than to try and force a joint lock. A skilled practitioner will lead an opponent into a lock by borrowing momentum and applying the technique before the opponent has an opportunity to counter. This requires the same sensitivity as used in Push Hands and in the same manner must be felt with an experienced teacher to really apprehend and appreciate it. In answer to your query about who would put you in such a lock? I would if it presented itself! A good fighter doesn't try to pull off a technique. A good fighter will seek to recognize and seize opportunities presented, whatever they be, flowing with the changes until the end. IMO you under estimate the value of Chin Na and so you are missing out on a very powerful and useful area of training that is necessary to be well rounded as a fighter.

Regards
Bob Shores

Bob,
You seem to miss my point.

Why would you put me in a lock? Are you one of the "bad guys"? No. Hence you would not put me in a lock in a real situation. The "bad guys" do not use locks. Locks do just that - lock. They do not wish to lock, their goal is to hit and run. Cops use locks, but since I am not a "bad guy" either they will not be using them on me.

Although I believe that proper chin na uses proper TCC principles (as I basically stated myself, so why argue this point with me?)if you think all moves (techniques) in TCC are created equally you are wrong. This goes for strikes & kicks too. Some may be developed more quickly & are less "high-level" for example.

I still hold that if 4 oz. is to deflect 1000 lbs. it should do just that, deflect(picture a small woman vs. a big man). Now if this is used to yield & perhaps find an opening to strike I can see it. But although this type of yielding, sticking adhering, following, could maybe just as well lead to a chin na application what good is that? Most of the time the smaller woman will not be able to break anything or control the big guy for long.

By the way, I get tired of people on this site making assumptions about my teacher, my training, & my skill level. I don't assume things about any of you. I just like to debate interesting points about TCC.

OK, Dragonprawn,

Here's an "Interesting Point" (and this is all I have to write to you on this subject... I'm not looking for another long argument):

"Locks" are an option (which present two options: control or destroy). They're useful for police work & for combat/self-defense. Locks can be used in such a way as to destroy joints (something a hit-&-run "badguy" might want to do to you, or you might want to do to a "badguy" someday*); they're just not for holding/controlling. Done smoothly & somewhat slow, they are used to control; done slightly differently they are used to destroy a joint -- and the average small woman can pull it off (with enough practice, of course).

* = Prisons are full of martial-arts instructors & students (some very adept at joint-destroying Chin-Na, others less so); it's possible that some of these people may end up in correctional facilities such as where you work. And it's also possible that you may run across such a person (or a group of such) on the street someday (outside of your job environment). Such things have been known to happen. "

Bob,
We do not necessarily disagree. For me it is more a matter of how much each type of technique should get emphasized in training.

However, you say that locks can be used to destroy joints. Well I guess what are are describing would technically fall under the heading of chin na. But I think of these types of uses separately. To me these fall under the category of splitting & separating.

I would never argue that splitting & separating are overemphasized by most people. In fact many TCC practitioners seem somewhat unaware of their potential usefulness. That said, it is probably best to drill your palms & fists, & maybe a couple of kicks before discovering all of the splitting techniques which exist in this art.

Hi lads on a more general note I've always been taught never to look for an opening for chin-na if it presents itself well and good and always strike first apply technique after.Any comments?

I've heard the same, simply put quinna is a "gift from heaven."

I've also always looked as locks as the first stage in joint manipulation techniques. To borrow a jui jitsu analogy, the larger circles were generally throws or locks, the smaller circles were use to break or dislocate the joint.

In essence the techniques can very easily transform depending on the circumstances. Last summer Luo lashi also showed us an interesting application combining fa jin and qinna joint skills, adding another layer of applications to the basic knowledge contained in quinna.

I hope this addresses the issues raised and is not to far off-track.

STC,
No, I've never thought about writing a book on counter-chin na. Not a bad idea though.

Like you pointed out you believe the concept of "4 oz. is to deflect 1000 lbs"

Exactly, 4 oz. of correct pressure on a joint will deflect 1000 lbs.

you dolts.

If any of you or your ladies want to meet up with me TONIGHT and find out how many OUNCES of alcohol can deflect 297lbs.

I'll be attended a FREE performance of two of the greatest bands in todays underground music scene; 'POCKET' and 'AMERICAN STANDARD' at a club called 'The Kibiz Room' next to Canter's Deli...(417 N. Fairfax Blvd, West Hollyweird... between Melrose blvd. and 3rd st.)

There's going to be a whole lotta nub shakin' goin' on.

the funk begins at 10:15.

come on and get a piece.

hey Tim

counter chin na.. i haven't seen anything which covers this...anyway..i expect an appropriate insult when you get the book published...

stc

tim, i'd think such a book could be of great value, partly because it could deal with the whole issue of locking the body up, chainlike against the ground or whatever--and the principles/paths of lock/release. it could be a comprehensive study of all the principles, as well as examples. in essence: a book on counter-chin na might be able to discuss chin na more completely than a book on chin na.wish i could express this better, but i hope i'm somewhat clear. anyway, i'd buy it!

I learn locks only enough to know how to prevent them. They can be slapped off without much effort.

Joint locks to be applied effortlessly require mastery of your own body, mastery of your opponents body, and the opportunity to apply it, the total combination of which is pretty challenging in a real fight while standing.

My punches are so damn quick they represent a click in time. I really only need to be able to control my own body, I don't need to control the opponent's body, and I don't need the right opportunity to present itself.

DP, to actually learn the 4 ounces thing, you need several hours everyday, a top notch teacher, and 20 - 30 yrs. IMO if it takes all this or a master to pull it off it ain't for the average guy lookin to defend himself.

Bob

Thanks for the answers!

Tim, I would be a sure buyer of a book on counter-Qinna, written by you.

Mark

Dragonprawn,


You state: “For example an Akido practitioner I work with liked to show me his skills by putting me in locks from time to time. After I started doing TCC he attempted to put me in a hand lock & couldn't. I just sort of twisted around with it without really knowing what I was doing”. DP

Two points pertaining to this paragraph.

1. You state you were able to just twist around with it unaware of what you were doing. This leads me to believe that your Aikido friend must not have been training long either for if he had a beginner would not negate his skills so easily and unwittingly.
2. It is definitely more difficult to apply a Chin Na technique to a limb of a person that is relaxed and doesn’t fight the move but rather moves with it. More difficult only in the sense that this requires more skill sense the techniques are done without brute force.

Next you state: “Beyond that though this question has me wanting to debate the utility of this type of thing. A choke hold is one thing - it can turn deadly in a hurry, but other than that”.. MT addressed this in his post so I won’t say anymore than he is right, once a Chin Na technique is on you can hold or break with it. It is interesting that you state you would like to debate the utility of this type of thing. I shared with you on just that and you were offended. Odd, is that because I didn’t agree with you? Do you only want to debate people who hold the same view as you? That is not a debate, that would be a pep rally I didn’t attend them in high school and I’m not getting involved in them now.

”I still hold that if 4 oz. is to deflect 1000 lbs. it should do just that, deflect(picture a small woman vs. a big man). Now if this is used to yield & perhaps find an opening to strike I can see it. But although this type of yielding, sticking adhering, following, could maybe just as well lead to a chin na application what good is that? Most of the time the smaller woman will not be able to break anything or control the big guy for long”. DP

That paragraph is simply contradicting your own belief. If you believe that 4 oz. will deflect a thousand pounds that essentially means size is irrelevant. How can you turn around in the same paragraph and say a smaller woman will not be able to break or control a big guy?


Lastly you state: By the way, I get tired of people on this site making assumptions about my teacher, my training, & my skill level. I don't assume things about any of you. I just like to debate interesting points about TCC.

First off let me say that my comments to you were based on what you stated in your post and not a personal attack. I never alluded in any way to your teacher or your training. The one statement I made about a teacher was in reference to sensitivity and the need of a teacher to learn it properly. I never said yours couldn’t, or you couldn’t, or anything of the sort. I simply gave an opinion based on your own statements. It seems you are a bit sensitive about this, as you had to read between the lines actually making stuff up in your mind to come up with an attack from my post. For the record I am not a Tai Chi practitioner. I do not care to debate TCC with you. The topic was Chin Na that I commented on simply because I am proficient in this area. In the future if you only wish to discuss these things with those who agree with you maybe you could put a little note at the bottom of your post. “Only reply if you agree with DP” that way you won’t be offended.

Regards
Bop Shores

Bob #1 (aka Bob, the original Bob),
I agree with you. I'm mostly a striker. I do think that 20-30 years is overly long though. Maybe 5-10.

Bob #2 (aka Charlie Manson's twin brother),
I wish I didn't live so damn far away. It would be a real treat to slam the mosh pit with a gentleman of your reputation.

Bob #3 (aka Bob Shores),
Yes I am sensitive. VERY sensitive.

Internal,
When you coming back east? We just started double-edge!

Mark,
Thanks for getting me (and others) started. Once again I had noticed a lag in postings (blame it on holiday shopping).

But to get back to your original point -

When someone grabs you in TCC you should take them outside your center. You have a center line as it were, so you twist your waist and swing them around you. If that does not shake them then twist back the other way & with the other arm scape them off. Moving from the dan tien is the key. This is perhaps even better exemplified in Ba Gua.

In many ways it can be said that the same way you get someone into a lock in TCC is the same way you escape from one yourself. So like everything else in this art it is more a matter of principle than technique. (This is why I don't feel this is a good book idea for Tim. Chin na & counter chin na are too similar so put them in one book).

That said, although there are some good books on "Tai Chi Chin Na" there really is no "Tai Chi Chin Na". Chin na is chin na. If you learned Judo or Akido or Praying Mantis or what have you, you would notice similarities to my TCC chin na (and show me a thing or two). Chin na takes a good deal of partnered training. Strikes can be practiced solo.

It could almost be said that one of the more "technique based" arts would yield faster more effective results when it comes to chin na. Which is one of the reasons it doesn't interest me too much. If you read the other guys posts you will see other evidence of the limitations of this practice. However it is far from useless (like that damn ground fighting). Just kidding.

By the way you did originally ask "How do you guys practice escapes from holds & locks"? & not how do you heal a broken elbow joint? - so you were not referring to joint destruction, right?