Gripping tactics (or just plain tactics)

Tim's Discussion Board: Jiu Jitsu/Grappling/Ground Fighting : Gripping tactics (or just plain tactics)
   By Kris P. (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit Post

I've been following what seems to be the BJJ party-line for beginners and focusing on a) escaping positions and b) maintaining positions. I dare say I've become decent at the former at least (for a white belt anyway). As for pinning, I think I can pin blue belts for 10-15 second these days. (My guard is still far too easy to pass though.) Now the problem is, while the escapes are starting to get smooth and rather satisfying to pull off, my attacks are still very clumsy. (As a result, all the pinning and escaping is going to waste. Everyone submits me sooner or later.)

It seems to me that the major gap in my game is a gripping strategy (or just plain strategy). My brain is set to a) escape from a bad position and b) maintain a position. I have no idea how to mount an attack and/or keep an opponent off-balance (which is just suicide in a guard game).

Drawing analogies from the standup game, I am thinking of tactics for getting a good grip to set up a throw (like in Neil Adams' book Grips) or pummelling practice in Greco. To give other examples of what I mean: it's kind of like the jabbing/footwork game in boxing or setting up a flanking step in Bagua. Is there a BJJ equivalent for this? That is, a systematic way to seek a position where attacks become easy, almost inevitable? To put it more specifically, how do you win gripping games? And break balance?

I suppose a fair discussion of this would have to go through each of the major positions. A wonderful example of what I'm interested in is the section on 'removing feet/controlling legs' in Tim's Passing the Guard (pp. 67-71). I'd like a whole book/video on that, as well as 'removing grips', 'getting a superior grip', and 'controlling with the legs'. (^_^)

Any input appreciated. Tim? Tips for a control freak? (Yes, I am one of those guys that always enters with a bridge when I'm doing Bagua...)


   By Tim on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 02:01 am: Edit Post

Kris,
Very good questions, but perhaps a little too broad for simple answers. First off, your offensive game will improve with practice, it's always difficult during the earlier stages of training.

Maybe this will help you with your guard game. The old school cross lapel grab with your opponent in your guard is a good grip to start with. This grip keeps your opponent's head down, and he has to constantly use force to try and sit up. In addition, he must constantly be concerned with your other hand sliding across for the choke.

From the cross grip, try to move your hips to a position where you are not flat on your back. If you can pull your opponent's arm across his body and turn your hips so your torso prevents him from pulling his arm back (for example, pull your opponent's right arm across to your right, hip move onto your right hip and bring your left leg as high up his back as possible), you will be in a superior position to attack. This is analogous to flanking an opponent in stand up fighting.

A high closed guard with one leg over one of your opponent's shoulders with your hips at an angle is also a superior guard position. Crossing the opponent's arms and moving toward his rear at an angle will make offensive techniques much easier to set up (just like stand up techniques).

When an opponent is on his knees (sitting in your guard for example), he has three "dead angles" (weak angles). If you imagine his base as a triangle, with the outside length of his legs and the line connecting his knees as the sides of the triangle, then the lines that bisect the midpoints of the baselines are the dead angles. Applying force toward these angles requires the least effort to break the opponent's base.


   By Larry W. Keith on Sunday, May 25, 2003 - 11:38 pm: Edit Post

Kris,

If I may, I would like to add a few general points. As far as the gripping goes a person should always try to grip with purpose. If you have achieved a grip on your opponent, and it isn't quite what you want, continue to feed your grip as if walking up the opponent. Just as the small positioning victories in the fighting game lead to the large victories, you should continually try to achieve superior positioning in your grip. Be aware of your opponent's grip as well. If you feel that he is achieving superior grip, break his grip. In the grappling arts such as Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, balance and grip are the fighter's foundation.


   By Kris P. (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 03:11 pm: Edit Post

Tim,
thank you for the advice. Your point about the three "dead angles" is eye-opening. It should have been obvious, but the transition from stand-up to ground seems to have destroyed all my intuitions.

If I could have a few more questions? A classic BJJ beginners' move is, when your opp. is in your guard and putting his right forearm on your throat, you respond by pulling his right elbow with your right hand, collapsing his posture to your right (and possibly following up with a choke). Are there rough equivalents for other postures? Like the hand on biceps?

Re: Larry's point, I guess a general way of putting my question is: what is a superior grip? I know that in standing Judo, a good grip is outside sleeve grip (controlling elbow or wrist) for hikite and a collar/lapel grip that controls the neck for the tsurite (not the only good grip, I know). Is there a grip to consistently seek, let's say in guard? (I presume your recommended grip for passing guard is: seated- one on chest, one on hips; standing- inside of knee?)

I know when the opp. grabs the ends of your sleeve or pants, you can circle your way out. But when the grip is deeper or when it's a lapel grip (or worse, a belt grip), I have to resort to pulling the hand off or peeling it off finger by finger. Is there a more elegant way?

Will try a high closed guard in class tomorrow...


   By Shane on Monday, May 26, 2003 - 09:49 pm: Edit Post

I think peeling off finger by finger is illegal in BJJ-- at least in competition.


   By Larry W. Keith on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 03:03 am: Edit Post

Shane,

Yes, peeling the fingers off is illegal in BJJ as well as Judo. Usually, if I do not like the grip my opponent has, I break it by pulling my gi free from their hand. The methods I find myself using most are, circling out of their grip, using my free limb or even my head to push their hand free, or with a quick pull or thrust of the area being attacked. These methods also seem to off balance my opponent enough for me to gain my grip on them.


   By Larry W. Keith on Tuesday, May 27, 2003 - 03:14 am: Edit Post

Kris,

In my belief a superior grip on the ground follows the same principle as a superior grip standing. It is a grip that best causes your opponent to be off balance and controlled. Equally important is taking a grip that prevents your opponent from taking your balance and control. Remember that principles are the same, whether standing or on the ground. In the Kodokan Judo style, we practice submitting opponents while standing as well as on the ground. The principles are the same.


   By james jung (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 08:55 pm: Edit Post

Kris,

If you are having difficulty with people passing the guard, it may not be your grip but your strategy. The basic grips taught to white belts are adequate. I believe it is important to keep your opponent off balance and on the defensive by constantly being active and attacking from the guard. Your opponent cannot pass the guard if he is defending an attack or a sweep.

It is important to work combination of attacks that flow naturally from one to the other. For example, from the closed guard a basic combination is cross choke, sissor sweep, and Kimura arm lock. It is important to have options within the series of attacks that will vary depending on how your opponent reacts to the previous attacks. For example, when attempting the sissor sweep if your opponent counters with posting his arm, then you can attack the posted arm with a Kimura arm lock. However if he sits back on his base, you can attempt to sweep him backwards by placing the knee high on his chest and pushing backwards and sitting up.

Remember, no matter how good a grip, if you do nothing with it, a good opponent will eventually pass your guard.


   By Vladim (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 02:00 pm: Edit Post

Hey Tim,what kind of exercises do you reccomend for developing a strong grip?


   By Tim on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 05:38 pm: Edit Post

Vladim,

In order of effectiveness:

No. 1
Hang a towel, gi or rope over a pull up bar, hold one side of the rope or towel in each hand and do pullups. Even better if you start with your palms facing away from you and turn them to face you as you pull up. Because your grip will be vertical rather than horizontal (like normal pull ups on a bar) much more grip strength is developed, and the grip is developed in concert with the rest of the upper body muscles used in pulling.

No.2
Fingertip pushups (on the "fingerprint" part of the fingers, not the very tips).

No.3
Air grabs. Extend the arms straight to the front until the elbows are locked. Now open and close the hands as rapidly as possible, be sure to squeeze the fists tightly for a second before opening the hands. Repeat with the arms extended straight overhead, out to the sides and straight down beside the legs. The elbows need to stay locked in all positions.


   By Jason M. Struck on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 05:43 pm: Edit Post

captains of crush

search MILO


   By Berliner (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 10:52 pm: Edit Post

Those are all very excellent and fundamental. I would suggest the following: Take an old newspaper and hold a single sheet in your fingertips with your arm extended. Now crumple that sheet of newspaper until it is balled-up in the palm of your hand. Repeat that several times. Thick barbells work for all different lifts (you can also modify by wrapping a towel around a dumbell and taping it to secure it). All different forms of manual labor work where tools are involved (ie. wrench turning, cutting wood with an axe, digging ditches with shovel, etc). Farmer walks work excellent. Good luck with your grip training.


   By Taiwan 69-73 (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:50 am: Edit Post

Vladim,

To expand on Tim's fingertip push-up suggestion, once you are comfortable with the fingertip push-ups remove your thumbs from the equation. That is, do the fingertip push-ups with just the four fingers of each hand rather than with the four fingers and thumb. Strength of grip depends primarily on the strength of the forearms. This exercise will build the forearms and you won't be able to do many unless the forearms are strong to begin with.


   By Fatboy (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 03:40 am: Edit Post

Try Bricklaying, all bricklayers have strong fingers... although a bit too much, changing a career just for getting strong fingers.

There is a Qigong call pick the pot, get a sweet jar, or flower pot where you can just get you fingers around the rim/lid, fill it up with water or stones etc. for some added weight.

Sit in a horse stance and with the pot in front of you pick it up turn and place it to the left side behind your leg toward rear, then repeat pick it up put in the middle, with other hand now pick it up and put it on the right rear behind leg and repeat about 50 to 100 times daily. The arm that is in non action can either rest on the hip or for more stronger qiqong hold it in a peng posture palm facing out.


   By marc daoust on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 02:26 am: Edit Post

shut up fatboy,what are you a gardener????
TIM can you explain no.3,
what does it really do?


   By Tim on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 03:26 am: Edit Post

Air grabbing is an old Judo exercise primarily aimed at building endurance in the hands and forearms.

If you try alternately squeezing your fists tight then opening the fingers with force, very fast (about twice a second) you'll feel the burn in your forearms fairly quickly.


   By Fatboy (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 04:44 am: Edit Post

I can't believe 2BC Dauosty acutally needed that air grabs exercise explaining to him, a common excercise in Japanese and Chinese MAs, and Daousty has the moronic aptitude to say everyone else knows nothing about MAs except him????

You show your lack of travels fly boy and BTW my Picking the Pot Qigong will give you the abiltiy to rip rib cages out of your opponents !!!!

Nuff Said


   By Vladim (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 09:28 am: Edit Post

Thanks for the responses guys.Do you think the CLUBBELL and KETTLEBELL would also be good for strengthening the grip?


   By Jason M. Struck on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 11:04 am: Edit Post

mos def

there are many types of grip strength- pinching, squezzing crushing etc. Different methods work better for different aspects.


   By Tim on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 01:13 pm: Edit Post

"Do you think the CLUBBELL and KETTLEBELL would also be good for strengthening the grip?"

Most definitely.


   By Jason M. Struck on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 08:08 pm: Edit Post

well said Tim.

:-)


resource: MILO strength training mag/catalogue.
check it out! Everything that you ever wanted to know about lower arm strengths of every variety.


   By marc daoust on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 09:32 pm: Edit Post

grab a broom at the end of it with on hand
and hold it straight up,then you can lower it forward all the way to parallel to the floor
and back up.
or down parallel to the floor on the right or the left,back and forth.
and hold it straight in front of you and make
circles to the left or the right.
great exercises!


   By losman (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 04:32 pm: Edit Post

Rockclimbers need serious grip strength (or they die). They use fingerboards for home training.

I picked up some Rock Rings (Metrolius) for 40 bucks and hung them in my basement. Much easier installation than a pullup bar and they hang/rotate so your shoulders have to stabilize as you pull up.
they warn you to start slowly w/ dead hangs or you'll overstress the tendons and ligaments in your hands.
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/product_index_training.htm
Scroll down to training equip at the bottom of the page.
The actual grip boards are cool too and some of them are really nice wood, but I'm not smart enough to mount 'em on the wall safely.


   By bob (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 09:41 pm: Edit Post

those look like a really good idea. thanks losman


   By Jason M. Struck on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 10:37 am: Edit Post

http://www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/departments.asp?dept=7

you lucky bastards


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