This is an excellent article on the importance of working in the clinch and it's place in real fights.




http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jdanaherframe.html

I think that this article was taken from "Mastering Ju-Jitsu", which Danaher wrote/cowrote with Renzo. I'll have to check my copy to make sure. However, the book is written just like this article. If you like this article, you'll love "Mastering Ju-Jitsu."

Well Tim, I read the whole artical, and I don't know how it can be about "real fighting", I didn't see the word chi one time!!

> Well Tim, I read the whole artical, and I don't
> know how it can be about "real fighting", I
> didn't see the word chi one time!!

Well, I think you didn't look carefully - "clin-CHI-ng". It's secret that's why it's embedded.

As an aside, head butts are not often mentioned but I think they can be a good option in clinch situations.

On the surface the article is fine. I'm sure it does much to promote their program. But on closer inspection I see some problems.

His advice that it is necessary to explore western boxing, jujitsu, judo, muay thai, greco-roman, etc. just to understand the clinch is a little bit much don't you think? Not to mention there are plenty of MAs that could be applied in a clinch that he makes no mention of (like the internals).

Even if you did train like hell using his advice (and it should only take 10 or 20 years) then when confronted with the oh-so-common situation of multiple attackers you will in his words take a beating. That's sounds just great!

He says most of his real situation experience is based on being a bouncer. How is that real? The people you deal with have been drinking. If drinking made one a better fighter then we would all be drinking before fights.

Not to mention, you might as well clinch if you're a bouncer - you can't exactly go punching & kicking the customers! The owner who invested all that money would fire you after you got out of jail. Real indeed.

The overview of style comparisons was to illustrate the point that no one style deals with all possible aspects of the clinch. The point is that one can take the best aspects of the various styles and combine them into a coherent practice. The point was not that one must master every style of grappling in their entirety to be able to clinch fight effectively. People who understand the dynamics of real fighting have explored the various arts and come up with concise training methodologies already.

I assume the author didn't include the IMA in his survey of practical clinch fighting because he's never seen anyone who practices IMA actually fight.

Tim,

That's still a whole bunch of styles to synthesize. And the author seemed to really emphasize a certain level of understanding of each. Your idea of training methodologies makes sense though.

Let me ask a general question. What percentage of people are capable of taking styles and blending them to work well compared to the percentage that pass down what they have learned in one style? The former has to be somewhat of a rare occurrence.

The alternative is to get the training in four or five different qualified schools. That sounds like it would be almost as rare a find.

Dragonprawn,
I agree there are a whole lot of styles to synthesize, but you don't have to do it, it's already been done.

If you train in any reputable competition oriented MMA (mixed martial arts) school, you'll almost certainly find comprehensive and refined clinch fighting strategies and techniques.

Dragonpawn,
Danaher/Renzo have more real fight experience (multiple and single) than you'll ever have. Especially Renzo. He's a nice guy now, but he was a bastard in his younger years...

Take a chill pill dude. Real fighting isn't easy and yes if you fight you're gonna lose, get your ass kicked and win. Not one style, including IMA has everything.•••••'s nice to think, but it isn't the case. That's the point. and yeah, you have to work really hard at them and put them together for yourself. Isn't that what the old chinese men used to do?

Gordo Fugido

Tim,

What is your feeling on the effectiveness of gaining 'clinching' or 'standing grappling' skills through the various pushing-hands or sticking type excercises found in various TCMAs? Do you think that the ideas of sticking and adhering etc might be the traditional Chinese way of approaching what people with a boxing-based vocabulary call clinching? If not, what is the difference?

The fact is that the opponent will always adhere and stick so it is up to the other (myself) to find ways to counter that attack. All opponents will attempt to grab so it makes sense to have a strategy "to get away" or not be there when he grabs.
I remember when I use to accompany the Navy patrols to pick up awols, etc. there would always be somebody to try to sucker punch or try to relieve weapons from them or us (Marines), regardless of the skill of the truants, they would always grab and push, then try to escape.
Training with street skill is punishing to say the least.

Something like 2/3 of people arrested by police for violent acts are under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs. If you don't think you will fight someone who has been drinking, you are incorrect. It is often the drinking with its lessening of inhibitions that leads to violence and aggression in the first place. Because of this most bouncers have more realistic street experience than just about anyone else. They also lack some of the professional accoutrements(uniforms, weapons, etc)of police, making their fights more akin to civilian self defense scenarios, yet different due to the goals of the participants.

Not everyone is so sloppy drunk that they are not a threat. Many fight better drunk due to the same lack of inhibition, and "feeling no pain" is not just a saying.

RE: Clinch

Clinch training for street is absolutely crucial. More real fights start there or quickly go there than not.

The thing that gets missed in the understanding of most TMA practitioners RE: MMA training is that a great many of the fighters DO come from a base in one system primarily. But they have cross trained in order to develop the other facets (either striking from the outside, clinching, or grappling) so as to best capitalize on the style that is their strength. The book in its entirety, not just the article, make this clear repeatedly.

If you want to be a skilled fighter, street or ring, you have to be prepared for the fact that the man you may be fighting may be skilled in an entirely different way - and to a much greater degree than you are. That means that you had better have the ability to KEEP the fight where you want it (either outside, in a clinch, or bring it to the ground). MMA shows that with proper training this can be done. With proper training, with proper training, with proper training.

Unfortunately most TMA will either focus on only one area of combat, do not contest realistically, or do no contest against fighters that have totally different training/combative goals, and thus they are totally unprepared for the adversary that fights a different fight. For many, MMA is not about mixing all the styles, but knowing enough to forestall a man who is a specialist in another area in order to keep him and punish him in the area you specialize in.

Excellent clarification Hissho!

Clyde,

Good question.

Hissho,

Let's say you have to fight either one of two guys. both are equally matched in experience, style, age, weight, etc. One is drunk. the second is not.

You go ahead & fight the second one. I'll take on the drunk guy every day. Sure his inhibition is lowered & his ego is expansive - but guess what? Actually you can answer it for yourself. Hint: it's the same reason we have DWI laws on the books!

Gorgo,

I don not think all "the old chinese guys" did it. However, something has finally convinced me to explore clinching a & ground fighting. While I have shown reluctance in the past about this & have argued with the Shen Wu posters on occasion, I have seen the light.

What did it though was a tape of the Gracie family competition history someone gave me to watch last night. I couldn't sleep afterwards. I couldn't even begin to think about how I might respond to one of those BJJ attacks. They always caught the other guy totally unprepared. It was pretty amazing.

So my fantasy about my TCC being a complete art aside I do plan to explore some clinch & ground training in the very near future. In fact as I write this the guy who loaned me the tape is taking a lesson with the author of this same clinching article. If he is as advertised I ought to pay him a visit myself, as he is local to me.

So there you have it. I'm not such a hard head after all.

Clyde,
Good question. Speaking from my own experience, practicing various types of "push hands" and related drills absolutely helped my ability to fight in a clinch. But only because we "sparred" in those formats against resistance (with striking, locking and throwing allowed). I doubt if just moving the arms in fixed patterns or only attempting to "push" someone away would have been of much use.

The BJJ and wrestling skills I learned were especially useful in dealing with trained grapplers in tight clinching positions and in dealing with trained grapplers that were very good at shooting in for the takedown. The Chinese styles I practiced were not as developed in these areas.

Cheers Dragonprawn.

See- even a blind hog roots up an acorn once in a while.

Bob#2

Dragon,

Frankly, your example is typical of dojo-based thinking.

You are committing the most basic error of self defense and martial arts training - underestimating your adversary.

But that's okay - from your last post, it appears you are learning....

I work with police officers(with real life experience) and I'm a bouncer. All you need to do is review a few videos of real fights, MMA fights, boxing matches and even my God, the old "Jerry Springer" shows and you'll be surprise how ugly real fighting is and how often the fight goes to a clinch.

It's not a matter of wanting to go there, but the "range" just happens. One of our first instincts is to clinch when we get hit. "often you find safety in the heart of danger or eye of the storm".

One of my old JKD instructors use to talk about counting 17 clinches in one 3 minute round of boxing.

I've explored elements of the clinch from Muay Thai, Silat, BJJ,Dumog, R.O.S.S.,Greco, San Shou, boxing, Judo and yes...Tai Chi(but only for the attribute of balance and energy).

Like Tim said, no art covers every hole. Yet, the concepts are all the same. You must read Tim's book on Effortless throwing.

I had a very good conversation with my Xing Yi instructor about this and showed him the reality of not having a "clinch game".

The Gracie's name was buit on groundfighting, but the genius was knowing that most Martial Artist had no clue or practice of what to do in a clinch. They had unpracticed concepts against unresisting opponents, but no true “hard work”.

What gets lost in whole synthesis of "styles" argument is the commonalities, which require less work and cognitive adaption. The concept of throwing is the same. Even the art of "sweeping" an opponent on the ground is a form of clinch.

That's why you can't just be a technique junky, but a student of "applied" martial concepts.

Backarcher

Statistics show that 80% of real fights will go to the ground. Chances are, the journey to the ground begins with a clinch. Doesn’t it make sense to know how to control that clinch in order to prevent going to the ground or to remain in control once the fight does go to the ground?