Been thinking about this a little bit.

Is it because that there aren't that many submissions that you can do while standing?

Just a theory and I would love to hear other POVs.

Thanks.

They say that because it's true.

Law enforcement statistics say that about 60% of all street fights end up with both fighters on the ground.

The original statistics made famous by the Gracies were a bit misleading. There's been a lot of discussion about the real numbers. Suffice it to say, however, that if you're well versed at takedowns and submission, you will be able to take it to the ground when you want. Striking, while just a technical, in most cases is less dependable as it's more difficult to control upright distance. Also, standing up works against gravity (e.g. all things fall). I want to fall down right now!

I would say that a solid 90% of the police reports I have read in the course of my time as a prosecutor and public defender, that involve a fight (be it a fight between civilians or somebody fighting with a cop) all have the same ending---somebody ends up on the ground¡Xusually everyone involved ends up on the ground.

Part of that of course is due to the fact that the cops (at least in Imperial County and San Berdoo, where I practiced) were taught to "dump the perp" (i.e. take the presumed innocent, future defendant to the ground to humanely place them under arrest¡Xactually what it really means is get the suspect in a bad position, adjust his/her attitude, then place them in the cuffs).

I am told that California cops are really starting to appreciate Brazilian Jiu-Jitusu's advantages in this regard (i.e as a method of attitude adjustment).

Take care,
Brian
Human Right Advisor to the Imperial County Sheriffs Department (just kidding about the title)

okay- here's the obvious:

most people do not like being hit. The natural reaction to being hit repeatedly is grabbing onto (thus stopping) the person hitting you. (this is called clinching). When two people clinch one- if not both will try to throw the other down (otherwise, clinching turns into hugging which doesn't work well with fighting, in most cases). If one person throws the other person down- there is a chance that the person being thrown will pull down the other- because the natural reaction to falling down is to grab and hold on to something.

On the flip side of the coin- someone getting punched hard repeatedly may ball up and fall to the ground to protect themselves. This will not stop a determined attacker from kicking the downed, balled-up person. The downed person (by natural reaction) will try to clinch with the standing person- which may lead to groundfighting.
(or lots of begging and whimpering).

That is why most fights end up on the ground.

Proboxers clinch all the time- to stop the other guy from hitting them (not to hug). Refs have to break it up regularly. If there weren't refs and rules against it boxers would throw each other down when clinched so as not to hug for too long in satin shorts.

Unless, ofcourse the person is thrown onto pedle bicycle handle bars or a display of paint cans as Rumbrae pointed out in another thread.

More accurately, the above is a truer statement "Most fights go to the clinch". It's just natural.

That's why I spend about 75% of my teaching to LEOs around the clinch.

Backarcher,
Great point! I've been teaching my students for years and years that the most important "phase" in fighting is the clinch (with the "free movement" and "ground" phases being the other two, to use John Danaher's terminology).

The ability to strike, throw, and escape from the clinch will be the most important skills a fighter can develop.

I believe one of the strongest points of the Chinese IMA is their emphasis on fighting in clinch range.

I agree with Tim.

"Free movement" Thats good I'm useing it!

-Chris

For those interested, I highly recommend Renzo Gracie and John Danaher's book "Mastering Jujitsu."

The text contains the most clearly presented explanations of the phases of fighting I've ever read, as well as the most thorough description of the history of BJJ back through the Kodokan to its links to the Fusen Ryu style of Classical Bujutsu.

I agree with the clinch mainly for one-on-one without weapons. Clinching otherwise is a fatal mistake unless it can't be avoided(mud wrestling with playboy playmates).

For the stats stated on street fights hitting the ground lets see some evidence. There are many questions, just some of which below.

My paramedic friend and another doctor who works in the er who are both MA says stats are that someone almost always winds up on the ground, and the majority of those are also weapons. However, how did he get there? Did 5 guys with weapons put the poor hospitalized guy on the ground, or, on the other end of the spectrum was it just one unarmed well trained BJJ guy? Furthermore, cops can only report on what they witness, they can't report on guesses. How much person to person crime in this world happens without direct personal police witness?

What the hell is so wrong with hugging?

Is Rembrae from Troxteth or whatever? Is he from England? That might start to explain a few things...

Rumbrae, what the fuk are you talking about? We are talking about one on one situations. If I was training to fight five on one, I wouldn't be training in martial arts. I would train in track specifically the 100 yard dash.

Rumbrae,

There's a DVD/video called "World's Wildest Street Fights, Vol. 2" if you want to see evidence. You nearly snapped your tampon when Tim suggested it a few days ago.

I had a paramedic friend too. At first He was very depressed that he had lost the use of his arms but over time he learned to cope. We lost touch (no pun intended!) because his wife left him for a man I talked him into hiring to help out around the house. It's a long story. Is your paramedic friend named Lou?

Bob#2

It was stated:

"Law enforcement statistics say that about 60% of all street fights end up with both fighters on the ground."

The question was simple, show stats, I still haven't seen any.

Cops and hospitals get involved with things that either go on too long(not often) or someone is hurt badly enough, a "man-down" call. What about all the other altercations that don't?

For example, lets say if only 30% of the time do cops/hospitals get involved then the 60% stat given above applied to that shows that we have factual knowledge that only 18% of all altercations result in one going to the ground and getting hurt, a small percentage.

If anyone here believes that 15-20 fights on a video sold for money makes an acceptable statistic and can find a respected scientific journal to back that up I will give them a million dollars.

My question was simple, show complete reputable stats.

Since you brought up tampons, they are best applied on those who are spurting blood and diarea from their mouths like you and Maynerd...

Before I show you the scientific evidence and admit I believe 15-20 fights on a video sold for money- can you prove you've a million dollars to back up your recockulous offer?

show some reputable cash and I'll show you some scientific evidence and espouse my beliefs.

I know BJJ has hit the martial arts/self-defense arena by storm. A question I have for any one, BJJ enthusiast or not, especially Tim. I think most everyone is convinced that it is a very effective fighting system but...the one reservation I always have in choosing it as a sole form of self defense is that if and when I hit the ground I'm going to do my best to get up
cause chances are that while I'm trying to put my agressor in an arm lock or whatever his buddy is not going to stand and watch, he'll most likely want to drive his boot thru to the other side of my skull. Now to the question. What would be the better choice?

Tom,
It would be a mistake to study BJJ groundfighting as your sole form of self defense as much as it would me a mistake to only practice stand up fighting.

Virtually none of the BJJ "self defense" techniques involve going to the ground with the opponent. The philosophy of BJJ in a street fight is to avoid going to the ground as much as possible. You may be confusing ring fighting strategy with street fighting strategy.

Since we're making up imaginary situations, why can't you imagine you have friends too?
Your friends should be keeping your opponent's friends from driving their boots through your skull.