Also, as one of the BJJ books I was reading pointed out, the "multiple friends" problem is the same regardless of what formal system you are using. As the book pointed out if you got a pro boxer in the ring fighting one other pro opponent and you put a second opponent in---the pro boxer is going to be in a bad spot.

And it don't matter what system you are talking about; multiple opponents are always a danger; don't matter if you are a wrestler, BJJ, boxer, or--gun fighter, two or more on one is a very tough situation.

That by the way is why the gang-stas always try and have their "crew" with them....and why cops often come in pairs..or more.

take care,
Brian

Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. I've had some exposure to the art and had attended one grappling competition. I guess I drew a general conclusion of what I had seen. I also read john danaher's article posted at "Realfighting.com"
re: the importance of clinch training per your clinch fighting thread 7/03.

Rumbrae, why don't you come up with scientific statistics to prove that most fights DO NOT go to the ground. The evidence out there, though not controlled scientific studies, suggest that most fights do go to the ground!

The statement was made, I asked a question.

Simple.

Can it be answered?

Rumbrae, from what I've personally seen, I'm in agreement with you. Most real attacks I've personally witnessed were won from the first blow, actually. The loser ends up on the ground with the winner often on top of him, hence "gone to ground" statistics, but the fight was already won or lost by that point. However, more than enough of them ended up on the ground unresolved(for whatever reason, accident, grappling attack, etc.) that one can't afford to ignore the possibility. True, one should avoid going down, but it doesn't happen by choice, and how nice to know what to do if it happens.

Last year, I found my ability to remain standing much improved when I trained with a grappler. The neat thing was that it really didn't involve memorizing a lot of new things. It was kinda like sticking hands, various spontaneous moves appropriate for the situation born out of internalizing a few principles, then practice (only way to learn to deal with incoming force).

I, too, don't think much of the competition mind-set as combat training, but some people just like sports, and that is as good a reason as any other for training, I suppose. As for techniques, I don't think you can compare UCF-type matches with the typical karate-kickboxing stuff. Though it is still competition, the techniques are done as they would be done in real combat IF THAT POINT WERE REACHED (which may or may not be likely if anything truly was allowed), unlike many competitions where the rules and equipment are used to score in ways impossible in reality. Remember that even the old brutal platform matches had some rules. I think that perhaps you are more incensed with the idea some (apparently) have that such things are the end-all to training, rather than just another step towards actual fighting(?)

Payton Quinn also felt (feels) strongly that most fights are decided by the first blow. Japans most famous warrior was a man named Musashi who survived a life of combat and duels not normally seen outside of fiction. In retirement, he wrote that the outcome was decided before the swords first crossed. Again back to mindset.

Kenneth wrote: "Remember that even the old brutal platform matches had some rules"

Actually, they had many more rules than most modern MMA fights (the Pride FC and UFC for example).

Since no one can answer a simple question to a simple statement, I guess no one will mind if I can offer something a bit better than a DVD, albeit not what I was looking for.

A recent Black Belt mag has an article where one guy collected info in a selective geographical area on roughly 1000 fights. 59% were attacks where the victim was suprised. Most ended in 6-10 seconds or less. Less than 30% resulted in the victim winning. I can't remember but less than 30% went to the ground, the majority of which were those that lasted 30-60 seconds. There was a lot of other information that would surprise most MA folks...

If you want to train objectively for reality my point is to find and review stats objectively, and then train for that likely scenario.

For example, if the above was indeed an acceptable sampling do you dedicate 60% of your training time for suprise attacks, majority of the time for a 6-10 second fight, breath techniques to control bodily and mental reaction to carry you though initial shock, simple aggressive movements that utilize gross body muscles and levers should adrenaline screw up fine motor control, a frame of mind for constant awareness and fast reaction, etc.

So if you want to claim a 3rd party DVD as your only source of reality, enjoy safe sport fighting, post weekend warrior pictures so the whole world can see how cool you are, and when someone asks a question you can't answer then offer challenges about knives in skulls well hey all the more power to you...

Rumbrae, it may be true that most fights only last 6-10 seconds and the victims are surprised by the assailants with the assailants winning most of the fights. Sure, the person caught by surprise will recieve the first blows and will be at a disadvantage. If that first blows are hard enough, it will end the fight then and there.

Rumbrae, how do you prepare yourself from getting knocked out or seriously hurt after somebody lands clean, hard strikes to your head. I suggest to you that no breathing technique or frame of mind will help you when someone sneaks up behind you and tees off on your head with a baseball bat. The fight will definitely be over in under six seconds. Can you be more specific as to exactly what kinds of breathing techniques, gross muscle movements, and reaction training will prepare you for this type of scenerio?

Does the article from Black Belt Mag address the following questions:
1. Are the martial arts training or fighting experiences of the assailants and victims described?
2. Is it possible that in the fights won by the victims (30% of the fights) that the victims were better trained martial artists than their assailants?
3. Do the fights that go to the ground last longer than fights that don't?
4. Do the fights won by the victims last longer than the fights won by the assailants?
5. Does the victim have a greater liklihood of winning if the fight goes to the ground?
6. Was alcohol or drugs involved in the fights, especially the ones lasting 6-10 seconds?

You not only have to look at the stats objectively but also intelligently. You have to answer the questions that I have posed above before you can convince me that your point of view is reasonable. For example, you wouldn't train for 6-10 second fights if the 6-10 second fights were all won by the assailant, and the fights lasting 30-60 seconds were won by the victim (unless you are planning to be the assailant).

I would really appreciate your feedback.

Goes back to something even more basic. Be alert, pay attention to whats going around you. Most things can be seen comming.

If you want to spend your time wisely in training for self defense, take defensive driving courses,since the chances of you getting hurt or killed in an automobile accident are far greater than you getting hurt or killed in a street fight.

Tim, I stand corrected, actually I think it was you that pointed out to me that platform matches had rules. Koojo, good points on translating statistics into reality. ghweel, your advice is sound, but thought you'd find it amusing I ordered a book on defensive driving once which was quite controversial as the writer outlined ways of using your car as a weapon (it involved carjacking scenarios and such). Mark, I'd noticed years ago in my reptile collecting that the animal that strikes first usually wins.

Gwheel, good advice but defensive driving is not as fun as fight training.

I'm no fan of cars

I'm an offensive cyclist ( and often a defensive one too!).

The "stats" were clearly shown, along with the methodology used to acquire them, in two separate studies, by LAPD. These specifically dealt with police officers dealing with violently resisting subjects of different types. This is where the Gracies got their stats because GJJ was included in a civilian MA commitee looking into LAPD uses of force and appopriate training.

Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Calibre Press also did a survey and discovered that 52% of the officers surveyed had someone attempt to take them down - 60% of those trying the takedowns were successful.

Here is a link to a more detailed discussion of same:

http://www.stick-and-knife.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl board=pa;action=display;num=1071638449

I deal with the street level reporting of what Brian noted he dealt with as a prosecutor, and I must agree. Even in civilian on civilian fights, at LEAST 50% involved one or both people involved (almost always in the case of victim of multiple attacker assault) going to the ground with the fight continuing.

I'm with Backarcher - almost all real world fights end up in a clinch if they last for any length of time. If you cannot control the clinch, you will almost certainly go down. Frankly I wouldn't want my preparation for groundfighting to be disbelief in statistics and the hope that the guy that took me down won't continue the fight once it gets there.

In short, the more I talk with all kinds of people in this fascinating world of martial arts and how they might apply to real fights, if I hear them make the claim that most fights WON'T go to the ground, I pretty much know that I won't be taking very much else they say about real fighting seriously.

Good point, Tactical Grappler. I tend to think that martial artist who say that most fights don't go to the ground is because they are not well trained in grappling and are rationalizing their lack of ground skills.

Everyone should listen to Tactical Grappler. He knows what he is talking about. Welcome back, dude!

BTW: I think I'm ready to start my version of gekkendo.

Meynard-

Looks like you already have with Dog Brothers!

Come over to Stick-and-Knife.com, your perspective will be welcome.

Tactical Grappler,

Good to see you posting here again.

Best wishes,

Tim

Tim-

Thanks. I bounce around here and there. I'm still hoping to come visit, but I have been sidetracked lately with weapons stuff.

Congrats on the black belt!!