TG,

Are you the same one from over at Lightfighter.com?

Welcome back...

Yup

Tactical Grappler, the study clearly states that it is about a tiny fraction of the american population(cops) who are limited to nonlethal force(significant disadvantages) applied to the single goal and objective of apprehension(specific mindset) with advance preparation(opportunity for warmup), on subjects who are also aware about what is going to happen(no element of surprise).

While valuable in the context of its own extremely narrow definition, and giving a brief pause for sport fans to cheer again, how does it apply to all other realities everyone else is involved in?

Koojo, good questions, there are answers in the article and others you didn't ask which may surprise. I have no interest in retyping it here, so you'll have to read it yourself.

I didn't know cops got to 'warm up' before a fight breaks out. That's so unfair!

Shane,
Interesting that your flippant comment about warming up provokes some important idears about MA, especially in light of Mark Hatfield's earlier comment:
"Goes back to something even more basic. Be alert, pay attention to whats going around you. Most things can be seen comming."

Do you think that MA, in general is to train the body to be always "warmed up" in the event of an actual street fight?... thereby making the fight more fair.

I heard that Chinese masters don't ever need to warm up bcuase of the Qi that they've cultivated over long years of practice.

Mybe this is an amateur question, but my understanding of MA is still pretty amateur.

Interesting. I heard that Chinese masters spend a good deal of time 'warming-up' and their 'warm- ups' are usually too difficult for an average shmuck to handle.

I don't doubt that someone who has mastered an art could kick the average shmuck's butt without warming up first- but I bet if a Master knew he was about to fight another Master he'd warm-up before hand (or would wish he had afterward).

I was just commenting on the rediculousness of cops being able to 'warm-up' before a perp goes nuts. But my understanding of law enforcement is amateurish.

Shane -

Cops don't get to warm up, just like they are not limited to non-lethal force. A number of lethal confrontations actually happen with the officer and assailant on the ground at some point. You see it in a number of car cam videos of officer ambush with the officers getting killed, and a number of FBI accounts of officer involved shootings, etc.

Real gun fights most often happen at clinch/grappling range as well.

Rumbrae has no idea what he is talking about. It can't be stated any more plainly than that.

He conveys his thoughts clearly, which is not too common on the Internet and gives him an aura of knowledge. But its content that matters.

It is pretty clear to me that most people here have a much better understanding of reality versus an "Internet Understanding," however polished.

By warmup I mean mentally, the cop is psyched for what he is about to do. Sure its not a 15 minute calisthenic routine but as any MAist or physical education teacher knows being psyched or mental preparation extends through to the body in many ways. Or are you saying the commander has no control over the troops?

TG, speaking of content, you provided it - internet content. I merely looked at your internet content objectively, summarized it, and asked a question about it which you haven't answered...

Rumbrae, I would appreciate it if you could tell me the websites where I could look up the articles or statistics that you refer to.

Rumbrae-

Read the link again.

The citations to the statistical information is provided in the text. It is from an abstract that was presented by the author of the study at an ASLET conference in LA - that yes, I do have in paper form. I seem to remember sending Tim a copy, which will verify its "non-Internet" existence. Or you can call LAPD and ask to speak with Greg Dossey, he will tell you the same.

As for your question - read the link again - the answers are there -

- let alone the fact that already on this thread a prosecutor who has handled umpteen assault cases involving non-officers, as well as officer-involved fights, and an officer who has handled the same, have both stated that in 50% or more of the cases of physical confrontations they have handled or responded to involved one or both parties at some point being on the ground.

In our business, we call that a clue.

YEAH!

My neighbors could hear me clapping.

That Tractical Grappler is cool.

Koojo, it should be the most recent copy of Black Belt Magazine, and as I said it wasn't what I was looking for, just appears to be better than a third party DVD.

TG, the link you refer to states what you wrote and I quote:

“The following info comes from a pamphlet provided for the ASLET Use of Force Training Seminar: Future of Non-Lethal Force Training-Reality Based & Integrating Techniques for Non-Lethal Force Training.

The training was presented in 1997 in LA, by Sgt Greg Dossey, Sgt John Sommers, and Ofc Steve Uhrig of the LAPD. It includes a description of the study and methodology used in investigating Use of Force incidents by LAPD.

In 1991, Sgt Greg Dossey, an Exercise Physiologist with the LAPD completed a comparative study of use of force incidents reported by LAPD for the year 1988.”

This reflects the summary in my previous post. You still haven’t answered my original question, “how does it apply to all other realities everyone else is involved in?” Take a Venn Diagram, I am talking about the circle that police are NOT in.

In the year of 1988 in which Dossey did his “study” the Bureau of Justice Statistics shows 3,563,000 serious violent crimes for which only 600,000 resulted in arrest. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/4meastab.htm

Dossey states and I quote you “Of the 5,617 reports examined, only 2,031 incidents contained a sufficient level of aggressive resistance by the suspect toward the officer to qualify as an altercation”. That results in 36% chance of altercation if we assumed the Dossey sampling is statistically valid.

So while there were 3,563,000 serious violent crimes among the population, the police would realize 216,000 altercations in apprehension (applying the 36% chance to 600,000 arrests).

That equates to police realizing an almost insignificant 6% representation of altercations of various levels of severity while the rest of that population, a whopping 94%, is experiencing serious violent crimes including homicide.

So I guess my original question on how do your stats apply to all other realities everyone else is involved with means two things – the pure validity of your stats in such an application, and, the difference in nature between a police officer doing a job and the rest of the population committing crimes?

Rumbrae-

Read AGAIN the link I posted. Try for a minute to get beyond the part about stats.

Read to the second half where I specifically address how statistics such as these may relate to altercations that the average individual may face - based on the types of altercations noted. This should be fairly common sensical.

Your own analysis of "stats" is meaningless - you are regurgitating numbers without understanding the practical, street level basis of what they represent.

We DON'T have statistics on how many of THOSE "violent crimes" went to the ground. I will repeat AGAIN what Brian Kennedy and I have experienced - a significant number of the assaults we have handled involve some aspect of the altercation with one or more parties on the ground.

I would also assume that you understand that not all violent crime is/was a physical altercation. I'll bet there is not much groundfighting in a drive by shooting - on the other hand, I'll bet a large number of rape victims were placed in a position which involved a prone or supine assault.

Please tell me you understand this as well, and understand why basing anything under the general heading of "violent crimes" has no bearing on this discussion without more detail.

CLAP!



CLAP!



CLAP!

Rumbrae, Do you do a lot of drugs, or are you really that stupid? T.G., I enjoy your posts, you know your stuff! B#2, maybe some penicillin? later, Benjamin

penicillin- the gift for the man who has everything.

"We DON'T have statistics on how many of THOSE "violent crimes" went to the ground."

Finally... thank you after two archives of asking the same question again and again .... and again and again and.... again.

"statistics such as these may relate to altercations that the average individual may face"

How, when you just stated you don't have stats on what happens to the average individual in THOSE "violent crimes"?

Ok, I agree there may be some relation but tell me this. A police officer is a peace officer with a public responsibility. He has a job he goes to everyday, which he is paid measly for, and after work goes home to care for his wife and kids. In view of your "study" based on apprehension, contain and control with nonlethal use of force, limited weapons and backup while burdened with heavy gear. Could you explain how you infer and extrapolate from a "study" that the type of people who commit serious violent crimes(like those in prison for such) have a similar public responsibility, goal, mindset, limitations, respect for life, reality, and experience as a policeman during apprehension and that the reality of the two is similar?

Or are you saying that LAPD when apprehending behave just like criminals who commit serious violent crimes?

By the way "THOSE violent crimes" as per the link are and I quote "rape, robbery, aggravated assault, and homicide." Furthermore, the Bureau of Justice Statistics has various further detail on their site regarding exactly this subject, just what you are asking for.

Please tell me that you are in fact interested in learning more detail about what the Bureau of Justice Statistics has to say on serious violent crime of the general population instead of consistently referring to a limited scope "study" of 15 years ago specifc to police apprehension.

Furthermore, given that detail is available(if you want to read it) please tell me why violent crimes have nothing to do with this thread or martial arts at all.

Or is this purely about safe sport fighting?

TG,
Heroic effort, but denial wrapped in fantasy is a practically impermiable barrier.

Rumbrae,
Would you agree ANY fights go to the ground, ever?

If so, and since by the tone of your posts it is clear you are not a pussy ass sport fighter but a true bad ass street fighting man, wouldn't it make sense to learn a little ground grappling for the off chance you may (despite the crazy odds against it) be taken down one day?

All,

Yeah, you can lead a horse to water...

Rumbrae-

One last try:

No one ever stated we have statistics for non-police involved situations. We don't. The only stats we can go by are the ones LAPD did, and the Calibre Press survey. We have to EXTRAPOLATE what likely will occur based on the nature of the force being used. If you do not believe that people get kicked and punched, get rushed at, tackled and taken down to the ground if they are not police officers, you live in a fantasy world. Will it happen as often with non officers than officers - probably not, as stated in the link. Most people will run rather than stay and fight.

Your narrow focus prevents you from seeing that I specifically addressed the fact that we need to look at the LE statistics to determine potential relevance to non-law enforcement altercatins. Its there in the link that I asked you to read AGAIN and AGAIN, yet you persisted with the same questions AGAIN and AGAIN. Apparently you still haven't read the whole thing, because you are still stuck on statistics, and re-iterating a set of assumptions about what the totality of LE confrontations represent.

Sadly, it requires a certain amount of common sense to be able to translate what you are reading about one situation with which you are not familiar with to a situation that might suit yours. You don't seem to have that, a state that will severely limit your progress in martial arts.

We also have had access to the direct experience of two people working in the criminal justice system at different levels that confirm that going to the ground is a frequent pattern in NON law enforcement assaults. It may not have happened in the "BB gun Wars," but it does happen in the real world. That you don't seem to believe it does speaks volumes about what you know of real world violence in spit of your statements to the contrary. The only reason you have not been dismissed out of hand, by me at least, is that I still have the hope that I might get through to people with information that could save their lives one day. I much prefer to respond to assaults where a guy fought back successfully rather than a murder where a guy got knocked down and was so clueless, and so shocked that he ended up ON THE GROUND that he could not reverse the situation to get up before the guy ground and pounded him or soccer kicked his head off.

Spend a few hours searching the Internet for video clips of real street altercations, prison assaults, and ambushes of officers and you will see a LOT of scrambling on the ground. If you think that prisoners get stabbed in the back differently than a CO does, or that a cop gets sucker punched, put down, mounted and pounded into permanent-disability-land or death differently than a citizen would: you are right. But only in this way: the LEO has a lot more to lose because the bad guy has just assaulted a cop (greater criminal penalties), there is automatically a weapon present (besides what the bad guy may have brought), the bad guy will most likely try to take that weapon, and use that weapon on the officer. If they have reached that point they have a lot more to lose than they would just dealing with a citizen-victim, in most cases. And a surprising number of these most serious altercations with officers are the ones that go to the ground. THESE are the ones that will have the most crossover for the citizen dealing with a legitimate aggravated assault on their person, a homicide or attempted homicide or rape. The LAPD stats are not talking about minor resistance where a wrist lock calms the guy down for cuffing - the overwhelming majority of uses of force, and they don't apply to the drunk pushing and shoving matches and husband socking his wife in eye type assaults that represent the overwhelming majority of assaults citizens deal with in daily life. They represent the stuff that could get serious, is getting serious, or already got serious the minute the contact started.

(BTW, you do understand that even pointing a gun at someone is an assault? Shooting it is even if you miss? That if I threaten to beat you up or use a finger gun in my pocket and take you lunch money that is a robbery? Even if I never touched you? Understand what the stats may say before you attempt to draw a conclusion from them)


Instead of seeking knowledge, you are seeking confirmation of a belief system that you are already comfortable with. It would be okay by me if it were not such a dangerous belief system to have.

Think on this hard, as I have nothing more to say.

The question has never been whether or not fights go to the ground, its understood by the context of the thread title. In that light my drive has been to find out HOW OFTEN and for the general population. The purpose is to develop effective training and know what to spend time and effort on in practice. To do so one must seriously question why and ask for facts.

For example, at the beginning of this thread it was stated “Law enforcement statistics say that about 60% of all street fights end up with both fighters on the ground.” My first question was “For the stats stated on street fights hitting the ground lets see some evidence.” Unfortunately after almost 3 archives of asking the same question all that can be confirmed is that the original statement has no evidence to support it.

TG, I trained arnis previously with two officers and we practiced with respect to their job reality, including apprehension, prisoner transportation, takedowns and dumog. While they agree with you that your study MAY be extrapolated and translated to serious violent crime, it’s just not the same.

MA is about the search for truth.

In my search for the truth I asked questions about statements people made here. The quality of response is some of the following:

buy a DVD entitled world’s craziest fights
denial wrapped in fantasy
you are an idiot
teenage video game player
never been in a fight before
do you do a lot of drugs
come down anytime and test knives with skulls
and others who have nothing else to offer up but tampons and the clap.

What does it mean when people can’t handle questions about their own statements and resort to the gutter?