These pictures of Chinese ground fighting are from 1936. Does this suggest that traditional Chinese martial arts originally had these techniques? Or were they 'borrowed back' from Ju jitsu?

http://hungkuennet.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~3583.asp

They seem to be functional adaptations for public security personnel, bodyguards, etc., and an attempt to end the superstitious feudalistic master-student relationship in the face of a modern society.

I believe Chinese Martial Arts had alot of wrestling at one time. It is natural for fighters to want to wrestle or learn to get out of a wrestling situation, which requires... wrestling.

I don't think they were borrowed back, they are just not common anymore... Chinese arts have consistently back hacked away at for centuries, and alot was found not essential and disgarded.

I dont know if this is true or not, but I heard alot of Chinese artists had frowned upon ground fighting and found it beneath them, just as the Samurai found it undignified to fight without his sword.

I find it undignified to get beat the hell up.

Would have to agree with you there. I am found of my teeth, so I avoid a fight at all cost

I like to fight and lost mt front teeth years ago. I have a removeable bridge. I prefer to pick my attacks judiciously, that is attacking when nobody is around, except my prey. find that most people do not like to fight and when someone upsets me I confront them semi'passively and then pick my loction.

I basicly think people have little integraty therefore I do not mind injuring them. The difference between me and most is that if you flip me off, thats an open invitation to set you up. And when I see you again, I will follow you to find an opportune moment.

Duke,

That is a potential problem and that is what many 'old teachers' (long gone) have taught. Wude?
Legal precedent (paraphrasing) is that you only defend yourself when in fear of your life.
If someone flips you off, then they control you with 1 finger. Walking away is the rule.

That is what the widely talked about "mind control" is about: being in control and not letting someone control you!

just a thought!

tim, i've often heard bjj being referred to as realistic training for the streets. just my thoughts here, but i avoid the ground in a streetfight, and not just because i can't groundfight. if you're grappling on the ground, that's an open invitation for someone to smash you when you're busy. any thoughts? (bjj to me means groundfighting, so if this is inaccurate please excuse my ignorance)

Mozart,
Groundfighting is a third of the art of BJJ. The training is divided into standup, sport grappling with or without a gi, and vale tudo (MMA competition).

Obviously, for tournament grappling training the bulk of the time is spent on the ground.

It's important to realize your opponent or his friends can "smash" you when you are standing up as well.

Hi Tim,

I don't have any training experience in BJJ. Could give some examples of the type of skills taught in each of the three areas of BJJ training? Obviously, I am most interested in hearing what type of stand-up skills are included in the standard curriculum.

Thanks,
Richard

BJJ has a fairly wide range of "self defense" techniques that deal with common street attacks (grabs, holds, headlocks, punches, kicks, tackles and weapons attacks, primarily defenses against knife and stick attacks). The great majority of these techniques are designed to take the attacker down while the defender remains standing (BJJ teachers never advocate going to the ground in a street fight unless there is no other choice).

In most academies, time is spent with gloves on defending live against striking attacks. Basic blows are taught as well. Most shools now incorporate some boxing and Thai boxing in their curriculum, especially the schools that emphasize "vale tudo" or MMA training.

Training for grappling competition is broken down into gi and no-gi (submissions grappling) formats. Methods of gripping, clinching, footwork, throwing, breakfalls, controls, chokes/strangles, escapes, sweeps and joint locks are taught.

Whichever aspect is taught, classes are usually broken down into conditioning and partner exercises, technique practice and drills, and then all classes end with live sparring.

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the information Tim. When you talk about BJJ that way it sounds like a rather complete and realistic martial art, not the one-hit wonder grappling art that it often is thought as.

By the way, do you know George Kirby, founder of Budoshin Jujitsu? He does some great old-school self-defense oriented jujitsu. He is out there in California too.

I've never met George Kirby, but I bought his first book on JJ when I was a kid.

Also in regards to BJJ, it's interesting to note that every single MMA fighter today studies BJJ ground techniques. That can't be said of any other martial art. That's a pretty big one-hit.

thanks for the clarification tim, i thought that bjj was just purely groundfighting, hence my skepticism about reality based training for the street.

Does BJJ curriculum allow for those who only want to practice "street" defenses, or does that really matter the way it is trained (perhaps varies with the instructor?)?

We might be moving to Missouri in the near future if some job interviews pan out, so I have been doing a little Internet surfing for schools and such in the area. Here is a bit of info I found on the Rickson Gracie website about an instructor in St. Louis. I like the fact that they specifically mention that he specializes in the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense System. I bet a lot of GJJ/BJJ instructors neglect this area of the training .


"The Association is proud to inform you that our long time student, Rodrigo Vaghi, is a Certified Black Belt Instructor under the Rickson Gracie International Jiu-Jitsu Association. His school, Universal Martial Arts in St. Louis, Missouri, brings the Rickson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu training to the Midwest, as our Association continues to grow.

Rodrigo has been training with the Gracie Family for over 13 years now. He recently arrived form Brazil, where he as an instructor at the original Gracie Academy, under the Grand Master Helio Gracie, my father.

A three-time State Jiu-Jitsu Champion, Rodrigo has distinguished himself as both an excellent competitor and as a teacher of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He also specializes in the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Self-Defense System, which has been proven to be extremely effective not only for the general public, but also for police and military work."

Geez these damn brazilians are everywhere.

Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Brazilians, oh my.

Kenneth,
Many BJJ academies now mainly emphasize the sport competition training. The self-defense and sport techniques are from the same technical pool of techniques, but, of course, the emphasis is different.

BJJ seems to be a symbol of the sport aspect of MA to many, but since so much controversy exists about that, perhaps it should be stressed that BJJ has a "martial" side to it. I know experiencing it is the best way, but so many of us don't have a BJJ academy nearby.

I thumbed through one of the Gracie's books once and was surprised at how much the stand-up "street" techniques looked like traditional jujitsu.

I practiced a few BJJ techniques (among kali and MT drills) at a health club I went to for a few months several years back. Again, I was surprised at how Taijutsu-like it was in its use of leverage and balance over brute strength.

black beans and rice,

buen provecho! also called moros y cristianos.

salud

I like cuban food.

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Sergio

I was looking for something else altogether "mind injuring propaganda" (They have that on TV 24/7 if you happen to be interested) when I came across your post here, Duke: "I like to fight and lost mt front teeth years ago. I have a removeable bridge. I prefer to pick my attacks judiciously, that is attacking when nobody is around, except my prey. find that most people do not like to fight and when someone upsets me I confront them semi'passively and then pick my loction."

I basicly think people have little integraty therefore I do not mind injuring them. The difference between me and most is that if you flip me off, thats an open invitation to set you up. And when I see you again, I will follow you to find an opportune moment."

First of all, I guess I would consider you to be dangerous to some extent because you are the kind of person who has not learned to _esteem_ _self_ but instead has to go to outside sources fill up that ever dwindling reservoir. That btw is rather the rule in our society as we are drilled from kindergarten through school through our "working lives" to derive our self esteem from external factors (school grades, supervisor appraisal, income, car, house, spouse) and not looking inside us and noting the intricate, complex and powerful individuals we really are.

I guess what really got me however is that you said "Basically people have little integrity therefore you don't mind injuring them". You know, the arm-chair salon-psychologist thing to reply here would be that you're just trying to injure others before they can injure you. It's the first thing that comes to mind but there is certainly also merit to it. If you didn't hold your self in so low esteem you would find that even though people will lie, steal and betray you, they - like you yourself - are still too marvelous a being to kick their teeth in just to be on the safe side.

Regards,
Gunslinger

gunslinger, get over it, he's a member of the quire, they're all like that

Kenneth Sohl- "I thumbed through one of the Gracie's books once and was surprised at how much the stand-up "street" techniques looked like traditional jujitsu.

I practiced a few BJJ techniques (among kali and MT drills) at a health club I went to for a few months several years back. Again, I was surprised at how Taijutsu-like it was"

Me too- I was surprised how 'Judo' it all was, specifically old-school and kosen judo-ish.
Anyone who's decent at just about anything seems to find a way to make the success of the techniques based upon leverage or angles or finesse, or to just make it look easy.

So a shuai-jiao wrestler picks up most any judo book, and says "those are all chinese throws..."

and the front thrusting kick in Taiji looks so similar to the same kick in Muay Thai.
Funny.